8 ms·

How to know when it's time to go

60 points by chautumn 2y ago

mikewarot 2y ago
I had a job that became way too easy as time went on. It broke me in unexpected ways I'll likely never recover from, even more than a decade later.
- begueradj 2y ago
  Powerful comment. I am trying to understand more behind those statements.
- croissants 2y ago
  Please elaborate?
  - pricees 2y ago
    Yes. Please.
- Yoric 2y ago
  I know what you mean (I think). That's probably the main reason I left what was otherwise my best job. I knew that if I stayed longer, I'd never be employable anywhere else, both because I'd have stopped learning, and because I'd have grown too comfortable/scared to move.
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    The other problem with an easy job is the boredom. If you are in office or even remote but present, remaining engaged but bored for 8hrs/day is torture.
    - Yoric 2y ago
      Absolutely. I'm having this problem at the moment.
- mikewarot 2y ago
  I was a system administrator for a small services firm. When I started in 1997 there was easily enough work to fill 40 hours per week, but as time went on, I smoothed all the issues out, and the actual workload slowly dropped. Additionally, there were some issues with the in-house database (Smiley) developed by the consultant I replaced. Since I had quite a bit of free time, I attempted to address those issues with a system wide upgrade, which would have saved quite a bit of time for the accounting department and others... but due to risk-aversion, they didn't adopt the changes... so I tried again later... and by attempt #3, I had a new version running which kept sync with everything in the legacy version.... and they still wouldn't bite. In the end I was showing up, making sure everyone's computers were working ok, and then waiting for things to break. The 3 attempts to upgrade Smiley took all initiative I had at self-starting, and broke me. It's more than a decade later, and I can't find the self-confidence to stick to any long term projects. I learned a lot of things, having essentially a decade of free time to pursue any rabbit holes I cared to, back when Google actually worked. But thanks to the anti-incentive with Smiley, and a case of Long Covid and the accompanying brain fog... any progress on personal projects is scatter-shot at best. See my frequent mentions of BitGrid here, for an example.
fdsas 2y ago
[flagged]
deleted 2y ago
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fadreqrew 2y ago
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Simon_O_Rourke 2y ago
> It’s no good nursing your private resentments for years, while telling your boss once a week that everything’s fine, and then suddenly walking out on them. Strongly disagree with this point. Your departure should be an enormous shock to management, otherwise you've just spent weeks or months mouthing off about work to them, they've not fixed anything and indeed might even have lined up your replacement already.
- h4ny 2y ago
  I agree with you that anyone who don't get the appreciation they deserve should leave and make it painful for management. But I think whether or not you should keep talking is highly situational. If you have a manager/boss who genuinely cares about you (hard to tell most of the time from personal experience), then the next paragraph of the article makes sense: > Instead, you should make sure that if you’re unhappy about something, your boss knows it pretty much as soon as you do. Keeping a paper trail of those discussions also help even if it's just for sanity check for your future self. Chances are most people won't help you because most people are bystanders or cowards in those situations (anecdotal, maybe everyone I know and I are unlucky).
- prerok 2y ago
  I think business relationship is not that dissimilar to other relationships. I think you should voice your concerns, while still letting the manager know that you are open to disagree and still commit. Only when your disagreement becomes too strong, then you leave. If you have concerns and constructive feedback, I found most managers to have agreeable reactions to it. Maybe I was just lucky, but I did have this experience across four companies. What you should not do is bare criticism without constructive feedback. Most managers will respond positively, even if nothing happens in the end. And after voicing it for several times, you can feel better for leaving, because you also did what you could from your end.
- kcoddington 2y ago
  This level of 'us vs. them' doesn't really help anybody. If your employer is actually this cutthroat (I imagine the majority are not) then perhaps this tactic is warranted. But as a general recommendation, TFA has a valid point regarding a potential source for a strong reference or even future collaboration. Burning bridges should always be a last resort. Also, I don't think the author is recommending 'mouthing off' but rather sitting down and having a civil discussion.
raddan 2y ago
I think it’s always important to have ambitious life goals. Goals can be career-related. But at least a few should be about your personal life. So, for me, it has always been easy to decide when to go. Is work helping me reach my goals or standing in my way? As an example, in the early 2000’s I had a comfortable, well-paying job in IT. But I wanted to be a part of something bigger. I wanted to be an expert, pushing the boundaries of science. For awhile, my job helped me pay for school—my extra training directly benefitted the projects I worked on. But eventually, I could see that I was not going to achieve my goals. And even though I loved my job, and my coworkers, it was clear that I had to leave. I do not regret my decision, even though I took a big pay cut to go to grad school, for a long time. If you don’t have goals, though… god help you.
- tmn 2y ago
  Did you reach your goals?
  - raddan 2y ago
    Yes. Of course, I have new ones now. I’m still working on those.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  >If you don’t have goals, though… god help you. Lots of people have goals, both winners and losers. It's much better to focus on process and let the chips fall where they may.
nehal3m 2y ago
>Ultimately, work that’s too easy is no fun, and it’s not the basis of a rewarding career. All you’re doing is selling time, and as you get a little older you’ll come to realise that time is a non-renewable resource. There's this strange myth that white collar workers try and find meaning or reward in their work. If the stars align so that the unquenchable thirst from your brain can be satiated with white collar work then great, keep going. But I suspect that work is just that, selling your time for survival and comfort in other parts of your life. It's even weirder that we place the onus of finding such meaning on the worker when we've built an economic system that expects them to behave like Homo Economicus; getting the best possible economic reward for the smallest possible input. Most of us don't have the luxury of pursuing challenge, putting food on the table is hard enough as it is. There's plenty of meaning up for grabs in parts of life that don't have anything to do with money. I think as a species we've optimized for the wrong thing; there's a better life to be had with quality leisure time than the convenience lifestyle our current economy seems aimed at. Sell as little of your time for as much as you can get for it and invest that time where you're sure to derive meaning from it.
- raddan 2y ago
  > There's this strange myth that white collar workers try and find meaning or reward in their work. It’s not entirely a myth. I am one of those people. But I do think that most people kind of just go through the motions. It’s possible that my work history helped shape my perspective. My earliest jobs were things like unloading trucks, stocking shelves, and waiting tables. Those are hard jobs, physically. When I finally got a desk job, it felt like I had finally arrived at something. Boredom was certainly present, at times, but it was easily mitigated by simply thinking: boring jobs are the ones that require little thought; jobs that require little thought are perfect for computers; how can I make a computer do this? Then it was fun again. And my employers always loved this line of thinking because they were getting more for their money. So it’s not that white collar workers (or even blue collar workers) try to find meaning in their work. Some do, some don’t. It’s that they SHOULD.
  - nehal3m 2y ago
    >So it’s not that white collar workers (or even blue collar workers) try to find meaning in their work. Some do, some don’t. It’s that they SHOULD. Since blue collar work tends towards more tangible outcomes I would think finding meaning in blue collar work is easier, but that's speaking as an office drone. Maybe the grass is greener, but it seems to me that receiving a broken motorcycle and it leaving your shop running is easier to find meaning in than delivering TPS reports. On the other hand, shoving out burger number fifty thousand doesn't seem steeped in inherent meaning either. And that illustrates my point; if you end up in a situation where you have a job turning a crank, be it white or blue collar, and it's hard to get out of that situation because it's your only income, then pursuing something more meaningful is very difficult. Maybe you can convince yourself that because your work has economic meaning you are fulfilling someone's needs somewhere, but when you come home too exhausted to enjoy your own time you can quickly spiral into nihilism.
Xenoamorphous 2y ago
The issue that I have with this type of article and why they never resonate with me is that they seem to assume you’ll be able to find a job with a similar salary if not a higher one, by snapping your fingers. I’ll tell you my experience: I’ve been working for 21 years, and I’ve only worked for two companies in that time period (there was a short stint at a third one, but I didn’t fully quit one of the other two so I never really “left”). At my current job, where I’ve been for 14 of those 21 years, I feel simultaneously underappreciated and overpayed. They pay me too well, to the extent of considering myself lucky if I was able to find a job where I could get 50% of the pay. Yet it bothers me that in 21 years, my only promotion was from junior to senior dev. I’ve seen a few people that I don’t consider better than me, neither from a technical point of view nor a soft skills one, being promoted several times and manage a bunch of people, and that bothers me. The reasons behind it are a mix of being the last member of the “old guard” before a new CTO came about and turned the tables from a technology perspective, and also working remotely. However I’ve always worked hard, created few new issues and solved a bunch of old ones, so they kept giving me unsolicited pay rises. I’m not crazy about getting into management, however with the rise of AI I think there’s a decent chance of my job being replaced by a machine in the next 5 to 10 years, if not sooner. And even before AI, not many companies are crazy about old tech people without managerial experience. I’m not good enough to land a job at a FAANG, esp. with my background, and being from a southern European country and as a nearly 45yo with a 3yo child it just won’t happen. But mostly because I’m just not good enough. We have a saying in my country: would you rather be the tail of a lion or the head of a mouse? I feel like the tail of a mouse, but the job pays too well, so I’m stuck and feeling miserable every day.
- beepboopboop 2y ago
  A couple things struck me from what you said: - Have you talked to your manager about a promotion? - On one hand you said it bothers you that others are being promoted to managerial positions, on the other you said you’re not crazy about getting into management. It’s ok to not go into management - the developer career path does not begin as a developer and end as a manager, it begins as a developer and ends as a developer. And on the flip side, the software development manager career path typically begins as a developer and ends as a manager. They’re just different paths, one will fit better than the other. - When you have a young child, consistency and security are good features in a job. You can take risks later if that’s what you want to do. In my opinion, some stagnancy is a reasonable trade off to better enjoy these early years with your kid that you’ll only get once.
6stringmerc 2y ago
“Don’t quit your job until you already have your next one” - old saying I received from my family
- whstl 2y ago
  "Go look for another job and do the bare minimum not to get fired" - advice I got from an ex-manager.
anon-3988 2y ago
One thing that I realized recently is that humans are not "designed" to be happy. We will always not be content with the current state of being. We will always be looking for the next improvement or change. In a sense, what humans actually care about is the derivative of their state. The absolute state doesn't matter that much. I mean, why would it? Why would evolution design a creature that is content? Happiness and contentment only works (for survival purposes) if it is fleeting. At some point, I was happy just _thinking_ of buying good, beefy PCs so everything becomes snappy. However, now that I can literally buy them, I don't have that desire anymore. In fact, I have no idea what to do with my money? I was happy just living with my parents and I could probably afford to do that until the end of their days. But now that I do have the money, that "dream" is no longer there. I guess what I am trying to get at is to no be trapped by the illusion of "the next good thing". Its designed to be a treadmill. Learn how to be happy with what you have.
- cardanome 2y ago
  Yes, your brain's main goal is survival. You don't need to be happy to live. Hedonism is a dead end. The best way is to make up some higher meaning for oneself, be it creating a better world, raising a child, spirituality, being an artist or whatever. You concerns should be bigger than yourself but still manageable.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  >In a sense, what humans actually care about is the derivative of their state. I suspect humans mostly care about the delta between their state and that of their friends and neighbours. It takes a great deal of fortitude to ignore the fact that those around you are materially richer.
mrbluecoat 2y ago
> you’re the king of a very small hill, and one that will eventually be washed away by rising sea levels. If this is the case, you need to migrate to higher ground before it’s too late. But many people will hesitate, fatally, because they don’t like the idea of getting their feet wet. So true in the Age of AI.
- infinitezest 2y ago
  My issue is I'm not sure where the higher ground will exist or how realistic it is for me to believe that there will be enough room for me. Things in tech are changing alarmingly fast and the hype around it makes it very difficult to sort out the truth from the rest.
h4ny 2y ago
> I don’t have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. When you hate your job, no matter how much you try to put up with it, there comes a point where you’re mad as hell and you’re just not going to take it anymore. So, maybe this is the right moment to reflect: is it time to go? I think only people who have stayed long enough would feel that way: and chances are by the time you feel this way it's because of external things that you can't change, and internal (values) that you are unwilling to adjust/sacrifice. If you get to this point then you should probably just go and _maybe_ leave the reflection till later -- at that point it's too far beyond the point to reflecting on whether you should go or not. > For example, if you’ve already become a so-called “senior” developer at Company A, and then you apply for the same job at Company B, you may find that their definition of “senior” is rather different, and that you don’t meet it. You’re a victim of title inflation: the currency of “senior” has become devalued. Keep in mind that there are companies that do the opposite: they make you feel like you are not worth as much so that they can underpay you as much as possible, and only start throwing money at you when they are scared that you may leave and your leaving can have substantial impact on the company. If you have never worked at places like that before I'm happy for you but know that there are lots of these places out there that manage to keep very bright people. These places typically have people with very high IQ in execs/management and they do everything to convince you that everything is about the mission (usually a genuinely worthwhile mission). They have long selection processes that weed out those who are _only_ technically capable -- they only hire those who are technically capable, will truly believe in the mission, kind, and subservient. They typically have long interviews (2 months + regardless of what level you are) and ask very probing questions (many would find uncomfortable even if they end up accepting the job) during topgrading so that they can identify whether or not they can hold you hostage. The result is they will make you feel incompetent forever, and you will only realise how good you actually are when you finally have the courage to step outside -- by that time you will likely have been paid "unfairly" for years and have your career hampered. > In particular, the HR department is not your friend. They’re not your enemy, necessarily, but they exist to protect the company from you, and not vice versa. I find these kind of literal explanation of situations pretty pointless. When you are in a tough situation, and assuming that you are reasonable, then the party that isn't protecting your interest is literally your enemy. If the company wants to fire you and HR is doing that anyway (sometimes even doing everything they can to silence you even know they know it's unreasonable or even unlawful), then they're your enemies. Only people who are reasonable and care for others will read statements like "they're not your friend but also not your enemy" as something meaningful, think about it and make their own lives hell. I wish people would stop giving this type of pseudo advice to people like they are presenting a balanced view when it really isn't. "Hey, it's literally their job to screw you over to protect the company even when it's morally wrong, so don't blame them for just doing their job, OK?" Does that sound reasonable to you? > In particular, you should give your boss a chance to change your mind—or, at least, you should let them feel that they’ve had that chance. Making them feel like they have that chance is fine, giving them that chance is actually bad advice. If you have made up your mind to leave and made preparations, hopefully you have a job lined up if you're not retiring, then don't give them any chance and don't cave in to more money (if they can pay you substantially more that also shows that they have been underpaying you knowingly and your manager haven't been looking out for you anyway -- the relationship is already broken and you will just fell more miserable if you accept it). The whole point of this article is that you already hate it and want to go, so don't think twice and make it more difficult for yourself.
malwrar 2y ago
I don’t understand how talented engineers can just job hop. I’ve spent 6 years at the current job, and while I feel safe and ready to try something new they’ve thrown so much RSUs at me (and their stock has done so well) that I stand to lose a life-changing sum of money if I just leave. People casually changing their jobs feel about as foreign to me as people who purposely seek a sense of meaning from their job. Am I thinking about this wrong, or is this just the “golden handcuffs” thing people sometimes speak of. I often find myself daydreaming of, post-vesting, moving somewhere cheaper and getting a part time job at a coffee shop. Now that I’m largely out of survival mode, I dream of a life where I can just own a home and participate in a community without being stuck in a place that feels like one big ponzi scheme. I feel like any corporate engineering job is built to steal as much of that from you as possible.
- fooblaster 2y ago
  not everyone is offered "life changing" somes of money to stay?
  - malwrar 2y ago
    Perhaps not, I honestly don’t really know what the average experience in software is like. I keep hearing people online simultaneously talk about making mid-six-figure salaries and also job hopping, I might just be conflating two possible life situations.
- david38 2y ago
  You think most hoppers are walking away from life changing money? You think hoppers aren’t calculating it’s in their interest to hop?
cyrnel 2y ago
I think declining an exit interview is bad advice for the exact same reason that venting during an exit interview is bad advice. Declining makes you look obstinate and can be used against you as well. You can just give neutral feedback ("grey-rocking") like the post mentions.
stavros 2y ago
I think the "don't have an exit interview" advice isn't applicable everywhere. Where I work, we would really like the feedback if you're leaving, so we know what to improve. If you're frustrated and want to vent, that's fine, that's still useful feedback. Nobody would retaliate because you gave bad feedback (and, if you're leaving, we know it's going to be bad).
defyonce 2y ago
It just feels so good to think that I can just get out and forget all about it. It relaxes me, and it brings me tears of joy. Yesterday I've spent 8 hours hoping that I could do a super easy task, I had to cry before I could focus and do that (it took me 15 minutes, mental preparation for it took me 7 hours). The problem though, I haven't interviewed for 6 years and it is very likely that I will not find anything for at least a year. Another problem, I don't feel like coding, ever. I've spent 15 years doing it and, in general, I am not passionate about it at all. I just don't want to do it anymore. After I've written entire systems that serve ok (I hope). I just can't do a single if statement without DPDR symptoms anymore. I am so thoroughly done, I just can't imagine doing this for another month. Boss knows, everyone else knows too. I sort of coast for a month and then it is likely that I am gone. I hope I will be gone on good terms. The biggest question is what is next for me in life? I have absolutely no idea.

60 points by chautumn 2y ago

I had a job that became way too easy as time went on. It broke me in unexpected ways I'll likely never recover from, even more than a decade later.

begueradj 2y ago
Powerful comment. I am trying to understand more behind those statements.
croissants 2y ago
Please elaborate?
- pricees 2y ago
  Yes. Please.
Yoric 2y ago
I know what you mean (I think). That's probably the main reason I left what was otherwise my best job. I knew that if I stayed longer, I'd never be employable anywhere else, both because I'd have stopped learning, and because I'd have grown too comfortable/scared to move.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  The other problem with an easy job is the boredom. If you are in office or even remote but present, remaining engaged but bored for 8hrs/day is torture.
  - Yoric 2y ago
    Absolutely. I'm having this problem at the moment.
mikewarot 2y ago
I was a system administrator for a small services firm. When I started in 1997 there was easily enough work to fill 40 hours per week, but as time went on, I smoothed all the issues out, and the actual workload slowly dropped. Additionally, there were some issues with the in-house database (Smiley) developed by the consultant I replaced. Since I had quite a bit of free time, I attempted to address those issues with a system wide upgrade, which would have saved quite a bit of time for the accounting department and others... but due to risk-aversion, they didn't adopt the changes... so I tried again later... and by attempt #3, I had a new version running which kept sync with everything in the legacy version.... and they still wouldn't bite. In the end I was showing up, making sure everyone's computers were working ok, and then waiting for things to break. The 3 attempts to upgrade Smiley took all initiative I had at self-starting, and broke me. It's more than a decade later, and I can't find the self-confidence to stick to any long term projects. I learned a lot of things, having essentially a decade of free time to pursue any rabbit holes I cared to, back when Google actually worked. But thanks to the anti-incentive with Smiley, and a case of Long Covid and the accompanying brain fog... any progress on personal projects is scatter-shot at best. See my frequent mentions of BitGrid here, for an example.

fdsas 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

fadreqrew 2y ago

[dead]

Simon_O_Rourke 2y ago

> It’s no good nursing your private resentments for years, while telling your boss once a week that everything’s fine, and then suddenly walking out on them. Strongly disagree with this point. Your departure should be an enormous shock to management, otherwise you've just spent weeks or months mouthing off about work to them, they've not fixed anything and indeed might even have lined up your replacement already.

h4ny 2y ago
I agree with you that anyone who don't get the appreciation they deserve should leave and make it painful for management. But I think whether or not you should keep talking is highly situational. If you have a manager/boss who genuinely cares about you (hard to tell most of the time from personal experience), then the next paragraph of the article makes sense: > Instead, you should make sure that if you’re unhappy about something, your boss knows it pretty much as soon as you do. Keeping a paper trail of those discussions also help even if it's just for sanity check for your future self. Chances are most people won't help you because most people are bystanders or cowards in those situations (anecdotal, maybe everyone I know and I are unlucky).
prerok 2y ago
I think business relationship is not that dissimilar to other relationships. I think you should voice your concerns, while still letting the manager know that you are open to disagree and still commit. Only when your disagreement becomes too strong, then you leave. If you have concerns and constructive feedback, I found most managers to have agreeable reactions to it. Maybe I was just lucky, but I did have this experience across four companies. What you should not do is bare criticism without constructive feedback. Most managers will respond positively, even if nothing happens in the end. And after voicing it for several times, you can feel better for leaving, because you also did what you could from your end.
kcoddington 2y ago
This level of 'us vs. them' doesn't really help anybody. If your employer is actually this cutthroat (I imagine the majority are not) then perhaps this tactic is warranted. But as a general recommendation, TFA has a valid point regarding a potential source for a strong reference or even future collaboration. Burning bridges should always be a last resort. Also, I don't think the author is recommending 'mouthing off' but rather sitting down and having a civil discussion.

raddan 2y ago

I think it’s always important to have ambitious life goals. Goals can be career-related. But at least a few should be about your personal life. So, for me, it has always been easy to decide when to go. Is work helping me reach my goals or standing in my way? As an example, in the early 2000’s I had a comfortable, well-paying job in IT. But I wanted to be a part of something bigger. I wanted to be an expert, pushing the boundaries of science. For awhile, my job helped me pay for school—my extra training directly benefitted the projects I worked on. But eventually, I could see that I was not going to achieve my goals. And even though I loved my job, and my coworkers, it was clear that I had to leave. I do not regret my decision, even though I took a big pay cut to go to grad school, for a long time. If you don’t have goals, though… god help you.

tmn 2y ago
Did you reach your goals?
- raddan 2y ago
  Yes. Of course, I have new ones now. I’m still working on those.
tonyedgecombe 2y ago
>If you don’t have goals, though… god help you. Lots of people have goals, both winners and losers. It's much better to focus on process and let the chips fall where they may.

nehal3m 2y ago

>Ultimately, work that’s too easy is no fun, and it’s not the basis of a rewarding career. All you’re doing is selling time, and as you get a little older you’ll come to realise that time is a non-renewable resource. There's this strange myth that white collar workers try and find meaning or reward in their work. If the stars align so that the unquenchable thirst from your brain can be satiated with white collar work then great, keep going. But I suspect that work is just that, selling your time for survival and comfort in other parts of your life. It's even weirder that we place the onus of finding such meaning on the worker when we've built an economic system that expects them to behave like Homo Economicus; getting the best possible economic reward for the smallest possible input. Most of us don't have the luxury of pursuing challenge, putting food on the table is hard enough as it is. There's plenty of meaning up for grabs in parts of life that don't have anything to do with money. I think as a species we've optimized for the wrong thing; there's a better life to be had with quality leisure time than the convenience lifestyle our current economy seems aimed at. Sell as little of your time for as much as you can get for it and invest that time where you're sure to derive meaning from it.

raddan 2y ago
> There's this strange myth that white collar workers try and find meaning or reward in their work. It’s not entirely a myth. I am one of those people. But I do think that most people kind of just go through the motions. It’s possible that my work history helped shape my perspective. My earliest jobs were things like unloading trucks, stocking shelves, and waiting tables. Those are hard jobs, physically. When I finally got a desk job, it felt like I had finally arrived at something. Boredom was certainly present, at times, but it was easily mitigated by simply thinking: boring jobs are the ones that require little thought; jobs that require little thought are perfect for computers; how can I make a computer do this? Then it was fun again. And my employers always loved this line of thinking because they were getting more for their money. So it’s not that white collar workers (or even blue collar workers) try to find meaning in their work. Some do, some don’t. It’s that they SHOULD.
- nehal3m 2y ago
  >So it’s not that white collar workers (or even blue collar workers) try to find meaning in their work. Some do, some don’t. It’s that they SHOULD. Since blue collar work tends towards more tangible outcomes I would think finding meaning in blue collar work is easier, but that's speaking as an office drone. Maybe the grass is greener, but it seems to me that receiving a broken motorcycle and it leaving your shop running is easier to find meaning in than delivering TPS reports. On the other hand, shoving out burger number fifty thousand doesn't seem steeped in inherent meaning either. And that illustrates my point; if you end up in a situation where you have a job turning a crank, be it white or blue collar, and it's hard to get out of that situation because it's your only income, then pursuing something more meaningful is very difficult. Maybe you can convince yourself that because your work has economic meaning you are fulfilling someone's needs somewhere, but when you come home too exhausted to enjoy your own time you can quickly spiral into nihilism.

Xenoamorphous 2y ago

The issue that I have with this type of article and why they never resonate with me is that they seem to assume you’ll be able to find a job with a similar salary if not a higher one, by snapping your fingers. I’ll tell you my experience: I’ve been working for 21 years, and I’ve only worked for two companies in that time period (there was a short stint at a third one, but I didn’t fully quit one of the other two so I never really “left”). At my current job, where I’ve been for 14 of those 21 years, I feel simultaneously underappreciated and overpayed. They pay me too well, to the extent of considering myself lucky if I was able to find a job where I could get 50% of the pay. Yet it bothers me that in 21 years, my only promotion was from junior to senior dev. I’ve seen a few people that I don’t consider better than me, neither from a technical point of view nor a soft skills one, being promoted several times and manage a bunch of people, and that bothers me. The reasons behind it are a mix of being the last member of the “old guard” before a new CTO came about and turned the tables from a technology perspective, and also working remotely. However I’ve always worked hard, created few new issues and solved a bunch of old ones, so they kept giving me unsolicited pay rises. I’m not crazy about getting into management, however with the rise of AI I think there’s a decent chance of my job being replaced by a machine in the next 5 to 10 years, if not sooner. And even before AI, not many companies are crazy about old tech people without managerial experience. I’m not good enough to land a job at a FAANG, esp. with my background, and being from a southern European country and as a nearly 45yo with a 3yo child it just won’t happen. But mostly because I’m just not good enough. We have a saying in my country: would you rather be the tail of a lion or the head of a mouse? I feel like the tail of a mouse, but the job pays too well, so I’m stuck and feeling miserable every day.

beepboopboop 2y ago
A couple things struck me from what you said: - Have you talked to your manager about a promotion? - On one hand you said it bothers you that others are being promoted to managerial positions, on the other you said you’re not crazy about getting into management. It’s ok to not go into management - the developer career path does not begin as a developer and end as a manager, it begins as a developer and ends as a developer. And on the flip side, the software development manager career path typically begins as a developer and ends as a manager. They’re just different paths, one will fit better than the other. - When you have a young child, consistency and security are good features in a job. You can take risks later if that’s what you want to do. In my opinion, some stagnancy is a reasonable trade off to better enjoy these early years with your kid that you’ll only get once.

6stringmerc 2y ago

“Don’t quit your job until you already have your next one” - old saying I received from my family

whstl 2y ago
"Go look for another job and do the bare minimum not to get fired" - advice I got from an ex-manager.

anon-3988 2y ago

One thing that I realized recently is that humans are not "designed" to be happy. We will always not be content with the current state of being. We will always be looking for the next improvement or change. In a sense, what humans actually care about is the derivative of their state. The absolute state doesn't matter that much. I mean, why would it? Why would evolution design a creature that is content? Happiness and contentment only works (for survival purposes) if it is fleeting. At some point, I was happy just _thinking_ of buying good, beefy PCs so everything becomes snappy. However, now that I can literally buy them, I don't have that desire anymore. In fact, I have no idea what to do with my money? I was happy just living with my parents and I could probably afford to do that until the end of their days. But now that I do have the money, that "dream" is no longer there. I guess what I am trying to get at is to no be trapped by the illusion of "the next good thing". Its designed to be a treadmill. Learn how to be happy with what you have.

cardanome 2y ago
Yes, your brain's main goal is survival. You don't need to be happy to live. Hedonism is a dead end. The best way is to make up some higher meaning for oneself, be it creating a better world, raising a child, spirituality, being an artist or whatever. You concerns should be bigger than yourself but still manageable.
tonyedgecombe 2y ago
>In a sense, what humans actually care about is the derivative of their state. I suspect humans mostly care about the delta between their state and that of their friends and neighbours. It takes a great deal of fortitude to ignore the fact that those around you are materially richer.

mrbluecoat 2y ago

> you’re the king of a very small hill, and one that will eventually be washed away by rising sea levels. If this is the case, you need to migrate to higher ground before it’s too late. But many people will hesitate, fatally, because they don’t like the idea of getting their feet wet. So true in the Age of AI.

infinitezest 2y ago
My issue is I'm not sure where the higher ground will exist or how realistic it is for me to believe that there will be enough room for me. Things in tech are changing alarmingly fast and the hype around it makes it very difficult to sort out the truth from the rest.

h4ny 2y ago

> I don’t have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. When you hate your job, no matter how much you try to put up with it, there comes a point where you’re mad as hell and you’re just not going to take it anymore. So, maybe this is the right moment to reflect: is it time to go? I think only people who have stayed long enough would feel that way: and chances are by the time you feel this way it's because of external things that you can't change, and internal (values) that you are unwilling to adjust/sacrifice. If you get to this point then you should probably just go and _maybe_ leave the reflection till later -- at that point it's too far beyond the point to reflecting on whether you should go or not. > For example, if you’ve already become a so-called “senior” developer at Company A, and then you apply for the same job at Company B, you may find that their definition of “senior” is rather different, and that you don’t meet it. You’re a victim of title inflation: the currency of “senior” has become devalued. Keep in mind that there are companies that do the opposite: they make you feel like you are not worth as much so that they can underpay you as much as possible, and only start throwing money at you when they are scared that you may leave and your leaving can have substantial impact on the company. If you have never worked at places like that before I'm happy for you but know that there are lots of these places out there that manage to keep very bright people. These places typically have people with very high IQ in execs/management and they do everything to convince you that everything is about the mission (usually a genuinely worthwhile mission). They have long selection processes that weed out those who are _only_ technically capable -- they only hire those who are technically capable, will truly believe in the mission, kind, and subservient. They typically have long interviews (2 months + regardless of what level you are) and ask very probing questions (many would find uncomfortable even if they end up accepting the job) during topgrading so that they can identify whether or not they can hold you hostage. The result is they will make you feel incompetent forever, and you will only realise how good you actually are when you finally have the courage to step outside -- by that time you will likely have been paid "unfairly" for years and have your career hampered. > In particular, the HR department is not your friend. They’re not your enemy, necessarily, but they exist to protect the company from you, and not vice versa. I find these kind of literal explanation of situations pretty pointless. When you are in a tough situation, and assuming that you are reasonable, then the party that isn't protecting your interest is literally your enemy. If the company wants to fire you and HR is doing that anyway (sometimes even doing everything they can to silence you even know they know it's unreasonable or even unlawful), then they're your enemies. Only people who are reasonable and care for others will read statements like "they're not your friend but also not your enemy" as something meaningful, think about it and make their own lives hell. I wish people would stop giving this type of pseudo advice to people like they are presenting a balanced view when it really isn't. "Hey, it's literally their job to screw you over to protect the company even when it's morally wrong, so don't blame them for just doing their job, OK?" Does that sound reasonable to you? > In particular, you should give your boss a chance to change your mind—or, at least, you should let them feel that they’ve had that chance. Making them feel like they have that chance is fine, giving them that chance is actually bad advice. If you have made up your mind to leave and made preparations, hopefully you have a job lined up if you're not retiring, then don't give them any chance and don't cave in to more money (if they can pay you substantially more that also shows that they have been underpaying you knowingly and your manager haven't been looking out for you anyway -- the relationship is already broken and you will just fell more miserable if you accept it). The whole point of this article is that you already hate it and want to go, so don't think twice and make it more difficult for yourself.

malwrar 2y ago

I don’t understand how talented engineers can just job hop. I’ve spent 6 years at the current job, and while I feel safe and ready to try something new they’ve thrown so much RSUs at me (and their stock has done so well) that I stand to lose a life-changing sum of money if I just leave. People casually changing their jobs feel about as foreign to me as people who purposely seek a sense of meaning from their job. Am I thinking about this wrong, or is this just the “golden handcuffs” thing people sometimes speak of. I often find myself daydreaming of, post-vesting, moving somewhere cheaper and getting a part time job at a coffee shop. Now that I’m largely out of survival mode, I dream of a life where I can just own a home and participate in a community without being stuck in a place that feels like one big ponzi scheme. I feel like any corporate engineering job is built to steal as much of that from you as possible.

fooblaster 2y ago
not everyone is offered "life changing" somes of money to stay?
- malwrar 2y ago
  Perhaps not, I honestly don’t really know what the average experience in software is like. I keep hearing people online simultaneously talk about making mid-six-figure salaries and also job hopping, I might just be conflating two possible life situations.
david38 2y ago
You think most hoppers are walking away from life changing money? You think hoppers aren’t calculating it’s in their interest to hop?

cyrnel 2y ago

I think declining an exit interview is bad advice for the exact same reason that venting during an exit interview is bad advice. Declining makes you look obstinate and can be used against you as well. You can just give neutral feedback ("grey-rocking") like the post mentions.

stavros 2y ago

I think the "don't have an exit interview" advice isn't applicable everywhere. Where I work, we would really like the feedback if you're leaving, so we know what to improve. If you're frustrated and want to vent, that's fine, that's still useful feedback. Nobody would retaliate because you gave bad feedback (and, if you're leaving, we know it's going to be bad).

defyonce 2y ago

It just feels so good to think that I can just get out and forget all about it. It relaxes me, and it brings me tears of joy. Yesterday I've spent 8 hours hoping that I could do a super easy task, I had to cry before I could focus and do that (it took me 15 minutes, mental preparation for it took me 7 hours). The problem though, I haven't interviewed for 6 years and it is very likely that I will not find anything for at least a year. Another problem, I don't feel like coding, ever. I've spent 15 years doing it and, in general, I am not passionate about it at all. I just don't want to do it anymore. After I've written entire systems that serve ok (I hope). I just can't do a single if statement without DPDR symptoms anymore. I am so thoroughly done, I just can't imagine doing this for another month. Boss knows, everyone else knows too. I sort of coast for a month and then it is likely that I am gone. I hope I will be gone on good terms. The biggest question is what is next for me in life? I have absolutely no idea.