7 ms·

Where are all the self-directed learners?

71 points by ChaitanyaSai 2y ago

leosanchez 2y ago
Is this an ad ?
- belter 2y ago
  That is what I mentioned and got my post flagged...They are also trying to get their candidates to design their product for them: https://www.aiche.org/sites/default/files/styles/chenected_large/public/images/Chenected/postlegacylead/jpgdt060506jobinterview.jpg https://www.aiche.org/sites/default/files/styles/chenected_l...
- fmxsh 2y ago
  Without any deeper exploration, the article comes to an abrupt end, with a link suggesting helping a git project; a git project with the expressed desire of having you participate.
PeterStuer 2y ago
I don't know about India, but having spent many years on university, first as a student, later as a research director and representative at all levels from the department to the university board, and the later as I watched my own children move through the process, I have seen dramatic changes in higher ed turning university ever more into highschool. In the 'old' days it was basically up yo you. Assignments during the academic year were few and far between. Each course resulted in an exam at the end of the year. How you passed that was up to you. This meant you were modtly free gor 90% of your time to attend classes or not. You could use the university as a knowledge buffet attending interesting lectures outside of your own field of study, get straight into the specialization topics that were the real reason you were attracted to field in the first place (AI in my case which was a very niche subject in those days) instead of just slogging through the generalist foundation courses (80% math in those days, physics, economics and some CS). These days students are bombarded with assignmments all year, with exams pepered throughout. This inflicts nearly full class attendance requirement and constant deadline pressures. Yes, it makes it so credit can be acquired piecemeal instead of pass/failing in one massive shot, but it reduces autonomy to near 0.
- gsf_emergency_2 2y ago
  Tangentially, this means there's an entirely non-niche market for AI-based uh ... nonautonomous aids. With closed-book pen & paper exams (e.g. in India), not so much.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  For me, personally, I don't think I'd have coped with the constant stress of all these obligations and assignments throughout the year. Much better to have a couple of weeks intense focus at the end of the year, I can manage that.
  - dijit 2y ago
    Yeah, I’m also like that. Infinitely curious and motivated when there’s a vague and nebulous problem in the future, as long as I can sorta see my improvements along the way. But assignments, idk, I don’t put as much of my curiosity on it. I was terrible at coursework and wonderful at tests largely for this reason.
- mattjhall 2y ago
  > In the 'old' days it was basically up yo you. Assignments during the academic year were few and far between. Each course resulted in an exam at the end of the year. How you passed that was up to you. Interestingly I think is exactly what the article is arguing against and is saying India is too much like. > You could use the university as a knowledge buffet attending interesting lectures outside of your own field of study, get straight into the specialization topics that were the real reason you were attracted to field in the first place (AI in my case which was a very niche subject in those days) instead of just slogging through the generalist foundation courses (80% math in those days, physics, economics and some CS). This sounds great for making academics, but terrible for educating a work force. Sadly, university is now the latter due to it being seen as a way to get ahead. One of the worst things to happen UK in my lifetime is tuition fees.
  - collingreen 2y ago
    It is a great way for a few to excel and a terrible way to build a brand around the value of your diploma.
xeckr 2y ago
I'm here. I'm sure a good chunk of the user base here are also self-taught in matters related to technology and other pursuits. As for AI, it basically allows self-learning on steroids.
- fmxsh 2y ago
  Glad to see this pointed out. I see a lot of complaints that AI "does it all for you," but my experience is that AI removes the time and effort barrier between intention and the acquisition of knowledge, creating high pressure for those interested in exploring a system. Also, it allows for quick learning through the practical application of theories toward a goal of interest. Typically, the best learning, as argued in pedagogy, is situated in one's sense of the knowledge's relevance in the tangible world.
belter 2y ago
[flagged]
technothrasher 2y ago
What this person is advocating for sounds exactly like what Maria Montessori was trying to accomplish. Though what I see a lot in Montessori schools these days is parents wanting to get their children into one because they see it as prestigious, and then pushing the school hard to conform back to a more mainstream educational path.
fancyfredbot 2y ago
Are there no self directed learners? Or did none of them apply for your job? I'm not in a position to answer this but I would expect that self directed learners would demand a premium salary and look for a prestigious role. I would also expect them to have self learned different skills to the ones you might be looking for...
- 486sx33 2y ago
  Perhaps they’ve learned not to waste their time and energy on initial applications.
  - Vivtek 2y ago
    Lord knows there are ample opportunities to learn this lesson in the industry today.
tomjuggler 2y ago
This is exactly the type of article that appeals most to me. Because it confirms my choice to drop out of college and learn on my own. I have the utmost respect, though, for those with degrees who actually manage to use the knowledge they gain to achieve something. I just don't think it's the right path for everyone. I'm not from India but will be taking the test just for fun
- zwnow 2y ago
  European university would kill me. I am pretty sure I have undiagnosed adhd and universities aren't made for people like me. Having to learn things i dont care about is practically impossible for me. Its not like I don't want to, its because im physically not able to remember these things. This is also why I didnt succeed my drivers license or cant read books I dont consider interesting. So self learning is the only way for people like me.
  - bryanhogan 2y ago
    I've also believed that university is not for me until I found a study that I actually enjoy and which is quite modern. Like my study, based in Germany, combines coding, design and entrepreneurship. With many opportunities for projects that students can initiate themselves, to work on what they value and enjoy. Something that they might make into a real-world product/service. And classes were very hand-ons, focused on actually doing the thing and not just theory. Also helped that there were almost zero typical exams and each class was two weeks long, two weeks of just that class. So what I want to say is that there are opportunities beyond the concept of university of a 100 years ago. Concepts that might align more with your values and needs.
    - zwnow 2y ago
      Maybe, but I am already a trained SWE (german apprenticeship) and have a well paid job atm. I might consider getting a degree separately at some point. But it will be such a struggle.
- philipwhiuk 2y ago
stevage 2y ago
This author sees a problem (lack of quality applicants) then assumes, with no obvious evidence, a cause (incorrect paradigm in education system failing to create young people able and willing to teach themselves professional skills) and prescribes a solution. Seems there could be all kinds of possible causes here. (To be fair, of course, I don't know anything about the Indian education system and the author obviously does.)
- ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
  OP here. Added this conxtext: OK, technically the absence of genuinely interested applicants is NOT an indication of drive. However, please note the context: It’s a brutal job market at the entry level in India at the moment. That’s why we are flooded with applications. Candidates either know this, or quickly figure this out. And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought? It is that lack of agency that baffles me and makes me search for answers.
  - klabb3 2y ago
    You’re assuming that the reason they don’t fill in your optional questions are lack of agency, when it is more likely they’d rather spend that time applying to more jobs. The early stages of the job market is called screening and is a wide net with low success rate. The incentives, especially with juniors, are to play a numbers game. If you are looking for culture fit, say that. And then have one such interview later in the process in a personal context. According to another commenter you’re asking for free labor (familiarizing themselves with your code and writing a design doc). If this is true, discussions of personal agency and creativity might be distracting from the real issues.
  - stevage 2y ago
    That's useful context, thanks.
shermantanktop 2y ago
I looked at the form. I don’t know the Indian job market and the typical process, but I wouldn’t apply to that place. Invasive questions, woo woo culture vibes, and then a big multihour homework assignment with a warning about rejection. Looks like a waste of time to apply, at least for anyone who has other options. Maybe that’s where those self directed learners are.
- MattGaiser 2y ago
  I agree. Assuming that nobody answered the questions and did the assignment because they aren't independent thinkers is arrogant. Nobody answered the questions and did the assignment as they make this job far more expensive to apply to than other jobs, with no clear higher expected value.
- jofzar 2y ago
  Completely agree, so many yucky questions
neilv 2y ago
A skim of the overall post has me sympathetic, but I almost closed the browser tab with the opening: > Fewer than 100 filled a form with open-ended questions. About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge. We are a nation with the cheapest internet and a billion internet users. Where are all the self-directed learners? The eclectic ekalavyas? Apparently not jumping through corporate drone hoops, for a chance to talk with your company. > And then to make it worse, our exam system is fundamentally broken. It’s like forcing Serena Williams and Magnus Carlsen (and Gukesh) to compete in 400m hurdles to figure out if they are fit for their respective sports. Exactly.
- TZubiri 2y ago
  The actual job posting just says "software engineering", full stack, ai, "to build a tool that answers all the questions". I can only see undergrads falling for this. Maybe if you narrow down the job requirements (and the company mission) you would get less than 2.5k applicants and you wouldn't need to throw challenges to filter out people who value their time.
  - cmcaleer 2y ago
    > filter out people who value their time Those who can, do. Those who can’t, will spend half a day on your application for free.
- ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
  OP here. We are fully aware of how this might seem like a lot of work for job seekers. But the practical reality is the Indian job market has a massive supply of talent. As with any, it is of variable quality. We are very clear we do not want to use the usual credentialing and leetcode interviews as filters. They suck. We want to work with people who are genuinely interested in the domain we work in (education) and this has worked reasonably well for us. I would love to find a better way to filter through 2500 applications. What markers do we rely on. AI has made the usual filters even more irrelevant.
  - 2y ago
MattGaiser 2y ago
Self directed learner is not the same as someone willing to spend several hours on a lottery ticket for an interview. The cost of applying for this role is 100x higher than most other jobs. So the independent thinkers did some thinking and realized that their expected return from this process wasn't that high.
- zwnow 2y ago
  Also corps fail to realize that most people arent interested in the actual corp work but rather niche stuff that isn't as marketable. Why would people go out of their way to apply to some corp job?
- ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
  OP here. What we hope the independent thinks will realize is that when the cost of applying drops down to a single automatable click, their cursory click application is lost in a sea of spam. This allows them to stand apart. Recruiting and dating have a tone of parallels. They are time-intensive for both parties. And that time spent does not always result in a positive outcome. And yet that high time-cost (for both sides) is what makes the relationship meaningful. Here's a question. In a difficult job market with a deluge of candidates, how should a candidate try and stand apart? And we have to answer that for the new AI age where output for many tests can generated very cheaply.
  - MattGaiser 2y ago
    Do the type of project you specified, but unprompted for companies that did not request it, meaning a higher delta between you and other candidates. Because you are defining the project rather than them, you can also heavily recycle it within the same industry, so it still stands out as impressive but also scales reasonably well. You can also do it with ChatGPT quickly and it is not noticeably messy AI work because there is nothing to compare your work with. Your work stands out to for its quality, but for existing. I did this back when I was an intern for an innovation role and got it. Did a bit of consulting for others on this years ago as well. A remnant of that time: https://simbi.com/matthew-gaiser/pre-interview-project-help https://simbi.com/matthew-gaiser/pre-interview-project-help The project idea is fine, but if everyone does the project, you are still stuck competing against many others on the same field. When I do this kind of project, I stuff it in with my resume as a single file. On the employer side, I am not sure what you could do that doesn't deter a lot of people.
Chaosvex 2y ago
Had a look at the questions they ask applicants to answer in the hopes of even receiving a response and I'm not terribly surprised that people might not want to fill it out. Aside from the invasive questions... > Here's a fun question: Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction. What are some likely reasons for this? > Please take 2 minutes to read our work culture and principles and answer this question: What do you think is the most intriguing aspect, and why? Really?
- ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
  OP here. It's a question to easily detect for people who use chatgpt to fill the form. Anyone who enters alpha-gal syndrome has probably used chatgpt. That isn't an automatic reject though (very generic template answers are). Guess we'll have to find another question soon now this is out here for LLMs to slurp up! The reason for this questionnaire is culture fit. It's also the very practical matter of weeding through 2500 applications when AI has made all straightforward code-based questions very pointless
  - Chaosvex 2y ago
    It's not about a single question, it's about all of them that don't do anything to further the process. They're a waste of time for people who have options - in other words, the people you want to hire. If a company wants me to jump through hoops just for the shot at an interview, I'm not doing it because I can go afford to go elsewhere. I'm sure I'm far from alone in that.
  - MattGaiser 2y ago
    Anyone who has done a Google search of "meat allergy" will also put alpha-gal syndrome. For a question like this to work, there should be a much wider variety of possible answers.
  - mystraline 2y ago
    Simply put, you can complain about "nobody wants to apply to my jobs". But you ask terribly invasive questions, questions that are just frankly garbage, and your AI landmine questions. And this is 100x worse applications than other jobs. And you admit that if you happen to know about alpha-gal (tick related disease prevalent in the USA) then you probably are using an LLM?! Seriously? If this is how you treat candidates, how do you treat employees? How many garbage 'tests' do you put them through?
DavidPiper 2y ago
I'm still thinking about it, but two things stand out to me: 1. Self-directed learning requires intrinsic motivation. Seems obvious, but I think it's really easy to lose that once you have extrinsic motivation (like a salary, or kids, making rent, a mortgage, etc). In these cases it may still be there, but redirected into things like hobbies, parenting, health, financial management, etc. 2. Self-directed learning is far more likely in a system where there is no (accessible) "existing pipeline" for externally-directed learning. This was kind of how it was for us 20 years ago - first year university was the natural age you'd be exposed to programming, unless you did it yourself earlier than that because you wanted to, and if you did, there was no easy playbook, you had to RTFM, if there was one, experiment, fail, etc. And "computing" was niche enough that librarians or other non-academic figures couldn't really even tell you what you might want to consider. These days, coding schools accessible to anyone are not even a dime a dozen, they're free. While I think this is a Good Thing™, it also falls into the trap described by the author where you're no longer creating an environment where students have to learn for themselves, you're creating an environment where they're taught. Again, I think more teaching is a Good Thing™, but the kind of problem solving the author seems to be describing is not actually related to any of the learned content, whatever that content may be. It's not about learning how to consume a resource, it's learning how to be resourceful.
- trod1234 2y ago
  Have you considered that the reason there are fewer self-directed learners today is because the framework for basic rational thought and critical thinking was never taught, and as a result of the friction in such cases needed to "play" and by extension "learn" anything, the friction exceeds the benefit they can possibly receive so they get stuck and don't do it. This presents a problem both in terms of the learner being tested, and the test maker (who may have formed the questions irrationally and non-deterministically in the first place). The Greeks knew how to do this best. Information transfer today makes no differentiation between true and false information. Its completely by rote.
  - DavidPiper 2y ago
    There was a longer version of my comment that included a disagreement with the idea that there are less self-directed learners today, but that is probably more a function of my local societal bubble than anything else. I do agree with your points. The criticisms of modern education systems (Sir Ken Robinson and Seymour Papert come to mind, for different reasons) for their rote straight-jacket approaches seem to be coming home to roost at scale. > the framework for basic rational thought and critical thinking was never taught Something I'm thinking about (rhetorically) is: can this actually be taught? Or can we only provide environments of play and exploration that allow kids to learn these skills for themselves. Directly "teaching" this seems to fall into a recursive (or maybe Godel-like) situation: teach "how to think" is just another rote lesson.
austin-cheney 2y ago
In all fairness, as a JavaScript developer, self directed learning is negatively rewarded by the hiring process. Instead the primary target is a laundry list of tool nonsense that mostly just contributes to tech debt. That is why I won’t write JavaScript professionally anymore.
anastasiapenova 2y ago
[dead]
csomar 2y ago
So for the people who didn't read the article, here are some of the form questions > What is your age? > HIRING CHALLENGE: Find our recenter browser plugin (it is open-source). Understand what it is for and suggest an interesting and personally useful feature you can add to it. Go through the code and share a brief note on how you would go about building this feature, and why. Note: Send us an email once you have thought this through, have put together the design doc, and are ready to start coding. > We don't measure how many hours you are at the office. What matters is whether the work gets done. We are reasonably flexible with hours. Currently, we operate around a 10:00 AM - 6:00 PM work cycle. Some things you work on will require more hours and effort, sometimes intense, and some won't. There may be a fair bit to pick up in your early days. You will likely need to put in more time, and that will pay dividends later.
- philipwhiuk 2y ago
  Also: The "everyone will lie question" > Do you understand that being authentic and true to yourself in your answers here will help you in the long run? the "embrace the suck" question > What do the words gratitude and humility mean to you? the one stolen from 'Google interviews': > Here's a fun question: Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction. What are some likely reasons for this? and obviously > What do you think your annual salary should be? So they can lowball you. This is about the most toxic interview process I've seen. No wonder good candidates go elsewhere.
- jmholla 2y ago
  > We don't measure how many hours you are at the office. What matters is whether the work gets done. We are reasonably flexible with hours. Currently, we operate around a 10:00 AM - 6:00 PM work cycle. Some things you work on will require more hours and effort, sometimes intense, and some won't. There may be a fair bit to pick up in your early days. You will likely need to put in more time, and that will pay dividends later. Translated: "We don't count how many hours you work beyond this pretty standard bucket of hours that you better be here for."
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
steele 2y ago
Filtered out by Occidental culture and language specific word puzzles concealing discrete math and linear algebra
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
_def 2y ago
I'll never understand how employers can expect to rent my passion. If you want dedicated people, you have to start with dedication yourself.
crazygringo 2y ago
> We received over 2,500 job applications. Fewer than 100 filled a form with open-ended questions. About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge... Where are all the self-directed learners? How does the author jump from low participation rates to a lack of "self-directed learners"? This is a total non-sequitur. You're running an interview process, not a MOOC or something. The more I read the post, the more it looks like an ad for trying to get employees via HN.
- ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
  OP here. Yes, that is a jump, which I bridged now. OK, technically the absence of genuinely interested applicants is NOT an indication of drive. However, please note the context: It’s a brutal job market at the entry level in India at the moment. That’s why we are flooded with applications. Candidates either know this, or quickly figure this out. And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought? It is a problem they have never been asked to solve for: How to stand apart and demonstrate ability without relying on the usual credentials. It needs creativity and independent thinking and some agency. It is the lack of these that baffles me and makes me search for answers. Learning is not just the know-how and knowledge you acquire for doing a job. It is everything else you need to navigate life and also, in this narrow sense, the skills you need to apply for a job, make your case that you are the right candidate, or at least that demonstrate that your candidature deserves attention. It is a very learnable skill. Especially now. And given the market, a skill anyone with initiative should try to acquire.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    > And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought? > It is the lack of these that baffles me and makes me search for answers. I think you are making a fundamental mistake about how things work in a bad job market. In a good job market, let's suppose you have a 10% chance of getting a job you apply for, and you're applying to 10 in this month. Then it's genuinely worth it to spend time and effort chasing those jobs, with "creativity" and "agency" as you put it. Because it's not a numbers game, you're genuinely looking for a good fit. In a bad job market, let's suppose you have a 0.1% chance of getting a job you apply for. Therefore you apply to 1,000 this month, literally 30 a day. It is not rational to put "creativity" and "agency" into those applications, because it is almost guaranteed to be wasted effort. Because the bad job market makes it a numbers game. You are making a judgment on people's character, when the reality is a simple question of economics or game theory. I hope you can gain some perspective and start seeing these job applicants with positive empathy rather than negative judgment. It's not about them not being self-directed -- it's about you having unrealistic expectations. I see that you've gotten a lot of responses like this in the comments. I hope you're able to take it as an opportunity for learning and self-reflection -- there's some valuable stuff here for you, despite your post being flagged.
joduplessis 2y ago
> Where are all the self-directed learners? Doing something other than filling out some esoteric BS form. These are possibly the worst kind of job applications in my opinion (coming from someone who has filled some out in my time).
yahoozoo 2y ago
Has India ever had independent thinkers?
mk_chan 2y ago
The article is nice and the intention seems to be good, but it’s not backed up by the fundamentals. The salary range posted in the job listing is low enough that anyone who would answer the questions to my satisfaction (personal opinion) and is an autodidact would instantly ignore the entire listing or leave a year after joining once they realized how valuable the skill they have actually is. Having conducted 50+ interviews with Indian and international candidates, including those from FAANG, you can’t just discount these skills by 50-75% of their value and then post an article asking where they are in good faith.
- ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
  OP here. The Indian context is important. We have a massive talent pool (many outside the US just don't know how many engineers graduate yearly (1.5 million!) in India ) and we are not competing with FAANG / well-funded startups. There is a lot of raw talent out there. We know because we have been hiring for a long time. Working with us has been the springboard to well paying jobs and senior roles. What we cannot compete on at the moment (salaries) we make up for with growth opportunities and learning (and this isn't us selling this; we have the evidence to back it up). What we might have is a problem where the raw talent doesn't even know how to make a case for themselves. What really surprises me is how the numbers havent increased in this day and age where one can realize that the median college (in India) is awful in educating them and they can find what they need online.
pluto_modadic 2y ago
I think... The problem definitely isn't your applicants. It's your job posting being out of touch, full stop.
karmakaze 2y ago
This is an example of Goodhart's Law, where qualification of entrance (whether to a college or company) is measured, and thus becomes the target for applicants rather than being good at what is being assessed. I for one never really cared about grades and would just sit in class and try to understand what it was really about so that it made sense and could be internalized. I don't think this works anymore where the bar is set artificial high using proxy checks (e.g. leetcode) or having to get past recruiting screeners who have no idea what the job entails.
- ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
  Absolutely. Wonderful book that talks about this in a different context https://www.amazon.com/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objective/dp/3319155237/ https://www.amazon.com/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objectiv... Also wrote about it here https://blog.comini.in/p/what-should-replace-grades https://blog.comini.in/p/what-should-replace-grades
trod1234 2y ago
Yes there is a growing problem, but the author as many others before him neglect the type of problem being faced. It assumes the problem is that we don't know how to teach better, and that's just wrong. We do know how to teach people, we've done it in the past. The actual problem is one of subversion of the processes involved. There is no accountability for teachers that harm their students in a specific way (i.e. teaching maladaptive behaviors through torture). The prussian model of education has from the beginning been about creating loyal unthinking workers. That history has never changed, and the groups involved support that history through the shadows. Its subtle, but its been happening for almost a hundred years to eliminate rational thought. Torture promotes this outcome, as the experts from the 50s can attest in their written works (Lifton/Meerloo). There is a classical approach to education where you are taught to be independent and think. It came from the greeks, and stood the test of time. If you see a problem with the existing system that is cascading, you need to go back to what worked. A known working state. Its just that simple. Doing so would ruffle a lot of feathers because there are a lot of malevolent people out there in the world today, and part of evil and malevolence is a wilful blindness to the consequences of their actions.
paradox242 2y ago
I can say this is definitely something I have noticed in many coworkers from India, but it's also not exactly uncommon in those who grew up and went to school in America. It really blows my mind how many people become literally paralyzed on step zero if they don't already have step by step instructions to complete the task. Even the suggestion of a simple Google search is received as if it were a revelation from on high.

71 points by ChaitanyaSai 2y ago

leosanchez 2y ago

Is this an ad ?

belter 2y ago
That is what I mentioned and got my post flagged...They are also trying to get their candidates to design their product for them: https://www.aiche.org/sites/default/files/styles/chenected_large/public/images/Chenected/postlegacylead/jpgdt060506jobinterview.jpg https://www.aiche.org/sites/default/files/styles/chenected_l...
fmxsh 2y ago
Without any deeper exploration, the article comes to an abrupt end, with a link suggesting helping a git project; a git project with the expressed desire of having you participate.

PeterStuer 2y ago

I don't know about India, but having spent many years on university, first as a student, later as a research director and representative at all levels from the department to the university board, and the later as I watched my own children move through the process, I have seen dramatic changes in higher ed turning university ever more into highschool. In the 'old' days it was basically up yo you. Assignments during the academic year were few and far between. Each course resulted in an exam at the end of the year. How you passed that was up to you. This meant you were modtly free gor 90% of your time to attend classes or not. You could use the university as a knowledge buffet attending interesting lectures outside of your own field of study, get straight into the specialization topics that were the real reason you were attracted to field in the first place (AI in my case which was a very niche subject in those days) instead of just slogging through the generalist foundation courses (80% math in those days, physics, economics and some CS). These days students are bombarded with assignmments all year, with exams pepered throughout. This inflicts nearly full class attendance requirement and constant deadline pressures. Yes, it makes it so credit can be acquired piecemeal instead of pass/failing in one massive shot, but it reduces autonomy to near 0.

gsf_emergency_2 2y ago
Tangentially, this means there's an entirely non-niche market for AI-based uh ... nonautonomous aids. With closed-book pen & paper exams (e.g. in India), not so much.
HPsquared 2y ago
For me, personally, I don't think I'd have coped with the constant stress of all these obligations and assignments throughout the year. Much better to have a couple of weeks intense focus at the end of the year, I can manage that.
- dijit 2y ago
  Yeah, I’m also like that. Infinitely curious and motivated when there’s a vague and nebulous problem in the future, as long as I can sorta see my improvements along the way. But assignments, idk, I don’t put as much of my curiosity on it. I was terrible at coursework and wonderful at tests largely for this reason.
mattjhall 2y ago
> In the 'old' days it was basically up yo you. Assignments during the academic year were few and far between. Each course resulted in an exam at the end of the year. How you passed that was up to you. Interestingly I think is exactly what the article is arguing against and is saying India is too much like. > You could use the university as a knowledge buffet attending interesting lectures outside of your own field of study, get straight into the specialization topics that were the real reason you were attracted to field in the first place (AI in my case which was a very niche subject in those days) instead of just slogging through the generalist foundation courses (80% math in those days, physics, economics and some CS). This sounds great for making academics, but terrible for educating a work force. Sadly, university is now the latter due to it being seen as a way to get ahead. One of the worst things to happen UK in my lifetime is tuition fees.
- collingreen 2y ago
  It is a great way for a few to excel and a terrible way to build a brand around the value of your diploma.

xeckr 2y ago

I'm here. I'm sure a good chunk of the user base here are also self-taught in matters related to technology and other pursuits. As for AI, it basically allows self-learning on steroids.

fmxsh 2y ago
Glad to see this pointed out. I see a lot of complaints that AI "does it all for you," but my experience is that AI removes the time and effort barrier between intention and the acquisition of knowledge, creating high pressure for those interested in exploring a system. Also, it allows for quick learning through the practical application of theories toward a goal of interest. Typically, the best learning, as argued in pedagogy, is situated in one's sense of the knowledge's relevance in the tangible world.

belter 2y ago

[flagged]

technothrasher 2y ago

What this person is advocating for sounds exactly like what Maria Montessori was trying to accomplish. Though what I see a lot in Montessori schools these days is parents wanting to get their children into one because they see it as prestigious, and then pushing the school hard to conform back to a more mainstream educational path.

fancyfredbot 2y ago

Are there no self directed learners? Or did none of them apply for your job? I'm not in a position to answer this but I would expect that self directed learners would demand a premium salary and look for a prestigious role. I would also expect them to have self learned different skills to the ones you might be looking for...

486sx33 2y ago
Perhaps they’ve learned not to waste their time and energy on initial applications.
- Vivtek 2y ago
  Lord knows there are ample opportunities to learn this lesson in the industry today.

tomjuggler 2y ago

This is exactly the type of article that appeals most to me. Because it confirms my choice to drop out of college and learn on my own. I have the utmost respect, though, for those with degrees who actually manage to use the knowledge they gain to achieve something. I just don't think it's the right path for everyone. I'm not from India but will be taking the test just for fun

zwnow 2y ago
European university would kill me. I am pretty sure I have undiagnosed adhd and universities aren't made for people like me. Having to learn things i dont care about is practically impossible for me. Its not like I don't want to, its because im physically not able to remember these things. This is also why I didnt succeed my drivers license or cant read books I dont consider interesting. So self learning is the only way for people like me.
- bryanhogan 2y ago
  I've also believed that university is not for me until I found a study that I actually enjoy and which is quite modern. Like my study, based in Germany, combines coding, design and entrepreneurship. With many opportunities for projects that students can initiate themselves, to work on what they value and enjoy. Something that they might make into a real-world product/service. And classes were very hand-ons, focused on actually doing the thing and not just theory. Also helped that there were almost zero typical exams and each class was two weeks long, two weeks of just that class. So what I want to say is that there are opportunities beyond the concept of university of a 100 years ago. Concepts that might align more with your values and needs.
  - zwnow 2y ago
    Maybe, but I am already a trained SWE (german apprenticeship) and have a well paid job atm. I might consider getting a degree separately at some point. But it will be such a struggle.
philipwhiuk 2y ago

stevage 2y ago

This author sees a problem (lack of quality applicants) then assumes, with no obvious evidence, a cause (incorrect paradigm in education system failing to create young people able and willing to teach themselves professional skills) and prescribes a solution. Seems there could be all kinds of possible causes here. (To be fair, of course, I don't know anything about the Indian education system and the author obviously does.)

ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
OP here. Added this conxtext: OK, technically the absence of genuinely interested applicants is NOT an indication of drive. However, please note the context: It’s a brutal job market at the entry level in India at the moment. That’s why we are flooded with applications. Candidates either know this, or quickly figure this out. And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought? It is that lack of agency that baffles me and makes me search for answers.
- klabb3 2y ago
  You’re assuming that the reason they don’t fill in your optional questions are lack of agency, when it is more likely they’d rather spend that time applying to more jobs. The early stages of the job market is called screening and is a wide net with low success rate. The incentives, especially with juniors, are to play a numbers game. If you are looking for culture fit, say that. And then have one such interview later in the process in a personal context. According to another commenter you’re asking for free labor (familiarizing themselves with your code and writing a design doc). If this is true, discussions of personal agency and creativity might be distracting from the real issues.
- stevage 2y ago
  That's useful context, thanks.

shermantanktop 2y ago

I looked at the form. I don’t know the Indian job market and the typical process, but I wouldn’t apply to that place. Invasive questions, woo woo culture vibes, and then a big multihour homework assignment with a warning about rejection. Looks like a waste of time to apply, at least for anyone who has other options. Maybe that’s where those self directed learners are.

MattGaiser 2y ago
I agree. Assuming that nobody answered the questions and did the assignment because they aren't independent thinkers is arrogant. Nobody answered the questions and did the assignment as they make this job far more expensive to apply to than other jobs, with no clear higher expected value.
jofzar 2y ago
Completely agree, so many yucky questions

neilv 2y ago

A skim of the overall post has me sympathetic, but I almost closed the browser tab with the opening: > Fewer than 100 filled a form with open-ended questions. About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge. We are a nation with the cheapest internet and a billion internet users. Where are all the self-directed learners? The eclectic ekalavyas? Apparently not jumping through corporate drone hoops, for a chance to talk with your company. > And then to make it worse, our exam system is fundamentally broken. It’s like forcing Serena Williams and Magnus Carlsen (and Gukesh) to compete in 400m hurdles to figure out if they are fit for their respective sports. Exactly.

TZubiri 2y ago
The actual job posting just says "software engineering", full stack, ai, "to build a tool that answers all the questions". I can only see undergrads falling for this. Maybe if you narrow down the job requirements (and the company mission) you would get less than 2.5k applicants and you wouldn't need to throw challenges to filter out people who value their time.
- cmcaleer 2y ago
  > filter out people who value their time Those who can, do. Those who can’t, will spend half a day on your application for free.
ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
OP here. We are fully aware of how this might seem like a lot of work for job seekers. But the practical reality is the Indian job market has a massive supply of talent. As with any, it is of variable quality. We are very clear we do not want to use the usual credentialing and leetcode interviews as filters. They suck. We want to work with people who are genuinely interested in the domain we work in (education) and this has worked reasonably well for us. I would love to find a better way to filter through 2500 applications. What markers do we rely on. AI has made the usual filters even more irrelevant.
- 2y ago

MattGaiser 2y ago

Self directed learner is not the same as someone willing to spend several hours on a lottery ticket for an interview. The cost of applying for this role is 100x higher than most other jobs. So the independent thinkers did some thinking and realized that their expected return from this process wasn't that high.

zwnow 2y ago
Also corps fail to realize that most people arent interested in the actual corp work but rather niche stuff that isn't as marketable. Why would people go out of their way to apply to some corp job?
ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
OP here. What we hope the independent thinks will realize is that when the cost of applying drops down to a single automatable click, their cursory click application is lost in a sea of spam. This allows them to stand apart. Recruiting and dating have a tone of parallels. They are time-intensive for both parties. And that time spent does not always result in a positive outcome. And yet that high time-cost (for both sides) is what makes the relationship meaningful. Here's a question. In a difficult job market with a deluge of candidates, how should a candidate try and stand apart? And we have to answer that for the new AI age where output for many tests can generated very cheaply.
- MattGaiser 2y ago
  Do the type of project you specified, but unprompted for companies that did not request it, meaning a higher delta between you and other candidates. Because you are defining the project rather than them, you can also heavily recycle it within the same industry, so it still stands out as impressive but also scales reasonably well. You can also do it with ChatGPT quickly and it is not noticeably messy AI work because there is nothing to compare your work with. Your work stands out to for its quality, but for existing. I did this back when I was an intern for an innovation role and got it. Did a bit of consulting for others on this years ago as well. A remnant of that time: https://simbi.com/matthew-gaiser/pre-interview-project-help https://simbi.com/matthew-gaiser/pre-interview-project-help The project idea is fine, but if everyone does the project, you are still stuck competing against many others on the same field. When I do this kind of project, I stuff it in with my resume as a single file. On the employer side, I am not sure what you could do that doesn't deter a lot of people.

Chaosvex 2y ago

Had a look at the questions they ask applicants to answer in the hopes of even receiving a response and I'm not terribly surprised that people might not want to fill it out. Aside from the invasive questions... > Here's a fun question: Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction. What are some likely reasons for this? > Please take 2 minutes to read our work culture and principles and answer this question: What do you think is the most intriguing aspect, and why? Really?

ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
OP here. It's a question to easily detect for people who use chatgpt to fill the form. Anyone who enters alpha-gal syndrome has probably used chatgpt. That isn't an automatic reject though (very generic template answers are). Guess we'll have to find another question soon now this is out here for LLMs to slurp up! The reason for this questionnaire is culture fit. It's also the very practical matter of weeding through 2500 applications when AI has made all straightforward code-based questions very pointless
- Chaosvex 2y ago
  It's not about a single question, it's about all of them that don't do anything to further the process. They're a waste of time for people who have options - in other words, the people you want to hire. If a company wants me to jump through hoops just for the shot at an interview, I'm not doing it because I can go afford to go elsewhere. I'm sure I'm far from alone in that.
- MattGaiser 2y ago
  Anyone who has done a Google search of "meat allergy" will also put alpha-gal syndrome. For a question like this to work, there should be a much wider variety of possible answers.
- mystraline 2y ago
  Simply put, you can complain about "nobody wants to apply to my jobs". But you ask terribly invasive questions, questions that are just frankly garbage, and your AI landmine questions. And this is 100x worse applications than other jobs. And you admit that if you happen to know about alpha-gal (tick related disease prevalent in the USA) then you probably are using an LLM?! Seriously? If this is how you treat candidates, how do you treat employees? How many garbage 'tests' do you put them through?

DavidPiper 2y ago

I'm still thinking about it, but two things stand out to me: 1. Self-directed learning requires intrinsic motivation. Seems obvious, but I think it's really easy to lose that once you have extrinsic motivation (like a salary, or kids, making rent, a mortgage, etc). In these cases it may still be there, but redirected into things like hobbies, parenting, health, financial management, etc. 2. Self-directed learning is far more likely in a system where there is no (accessible) "existing pipeline" for externally-directed learning. This was kind of how it was for us 20 years ago - first year university was the natural age you'd be exposed to programming, unless you did it yourself earlier than that because you wanted to, and if you did, there was no easy playbook, you had to RTFM, if there was one, experiment, fail, etc. And "computing" was niche enough that librarians or other non-academic figures couldn't really even tell you what you might want to consider. These days, coding schools accessible to anyone are not even a dime a dozen, they're free. While I think this is a Good Thing™, it also falls into the trap described by the author where you're no longer creating an environment where students have to learn for themselves, you're creating an environment where they're taught. Again, I think more teaching is a Good Thing™, but the kind of problem solving the author seems to be describing is not actually related to any of the learned content, whatever that content may be. It's not about learning how to consume a resource, it's learning how to be resourceful.

trod1234 2y ago
Have you considered that the reason there are fewer self-directed learners today is because the framework for basic rational thought and critical thinking was never taught, and as a result of the friction in such cases needed to "play" and by extension "learn" anything, the friction exceeds the benefit they can possibly receive so they get stuck and don't do it. This presents a problem both in terms of the learner being tested, and the test maker (who may have formed the questions irrationally and non-deterministically in the first place). The Greeks knew how to do this best. Information transfer today makes no differentiation between true and false information. Its completely by rote.
- DavidPiper 2y ago
  There was a longer version of my comment that included a disagreement with the idea that there are less self-directed learners today, but that is probably more a function of my local societal bubble than anything else. I do agree with your points. The criticisms of modern education systems (Sir Ken Robinson and Seymour Papert come to mind, for different reasons) for their rote straight-jacket approaches seem to be coming home to roost at scale. > the framework for basic rational thought and critical thinking was never taught Something I'm thinking about (rhetorically) is: can this actually be taught? Or can we only provide environments of play and exploration that allow kids to learn these skills for themselves. Directly "teaching" this seems to fall into a recursive (or maybe Godel-like) situation: teach "how to think" is just another rote lesson.

austin-cheney 2y ago

In all fairness, as a JavaScript developer, self directed learning is negatively rewarded by the hiring process. Instead the primary target is a laundry list of tool nonsense that mostly just contributes to tech debt. That is why I won’t write JavaScript professionally anymore.

anastasiapenova 2y ago

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csomar 2y ago

So for the people who didn't read the article, here are some of the form questions > What is your age? > HIRING CHALLENGE: Find our recenter browser plugin (it is open-source). Understand what it is for and suggest an interesting and personally useful feature you can add to it. Go through the code and share a brief note on how you would go about building this feature, and why. Note: Send us an email once you have thought this through, have put together the design doc, and are ready to start coding. > We don't measure how many hours you are at the office. What matters is whether the work gets done. We are reasonably flexible with hours. Currently, we operate around a 10:00 AM - 6:00 PM work cycle. Some things you work on will require more hours and effort, sometimes intense, and some won't. There may be a fair bit to pick up in your early days. You will likely need to put in more time, and that will pay dividends later.

philipwhiuk 2y ago
Also: The "everyone will lie question" > Do you understand that being authentic and true to yourself in your answers here will help you in the long run? the "embrace the suck" question > What do the words gratitude and humility mean to you? the one stolen from 'Google interviews': > Here's a fun question: Someone who eats meat often has an allergic reaction. What are some likely reasons for this? and obviously > What do you think your annual salary should be? So they can lowball you. This is about the most toxic interview process I've seen. No wonder good candidates go elsewhere.
jmholla 2y ago
> We don't measure how many hours you are at the office. What matters is whether the work gets done. We are reasonably flexible with hours. Currently, we operate around a 10:00 AM - 6:00 PM work cycle. Some things you work on will require more hours and effort, sometimes intense, and some won't. There may be a fair bit to pick up in your early days. You will likely need to put in more time, and that will pay dividends later. Translated: "We don't count how many hours you work beyond this pretty standard bucket of hours that you better be here for."
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago

steele 2y ago

Filtered out by Occidental culture and language specific word puzzles concealing discrete math and linear algebra

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

_def 2y ago

I'll never understand how employers can expect to rent my passion. If you want dedicated people, you have to start with dedication yourself.

crazygringo 2y ago

> We received over 2,500 job applications. Fewer than 100 filled a form with open-ended questions. About 15 went on to complete a reasonably simple real-world challenge... Where are all the self-directed learners? How does the author jump from low participation rates to a lack of "self-directed learners"? This is a total non-sequitur. You're running an interview process, not a MOOC or something. The more I read the post, the more it looks like an ad for trying to get employees via HN.

ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
OP here. Yes, that is a jump, which I bridged now. OK, technically the absence of genuinely interested applicants is NOT an indication of drive. However, please note the context: It’s a brutal job market at the entry level in India at the moment. That’s why we are flooded with applications. Candidates either know this, or quickly figure this out. And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought? It is a problem they have never been asked to solve for: How to stand apart and demonstrate ability without relying on the usual credentials. It needs creativity and independent thinking and some agency. It is the lack of these that baffles me and makes me search for answers. Learning is not just the know-how and knowledge you acquire for doing a job. It is everything else you need to navigate life and also, in this narrow sense, the skills you need to apply for a job, make your case that you are the right candidate, or at least that demonstrate that your candidature deserves attention. It is a very learnable skill. Especially now. And given the market, a skill anyone with initiative should try to acquire.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  > And yet, that does not translate into many giving their application serious and creative thought? > It is the lack of these that baffles me and makes me search for answers. I think you are making a fundamental mistake about how things work in a bad job market. In a good job market, let's suppose you have a 10% chance of getting a job you apply for, and you're applying to 10 in this month. Then it's genuinely worth it to spend time and effort chasing those jobs, with "creativity" and "agency" as you put it. Because it's not a numbers game, you're genuinely looking for a good fit. In a bad job market, let's suppose you have a 0.1% chance of getting a job you apply for. Therefore you apply to 1,000 this month, literally 30 a day. It is not rational to put "creativity" and "agency" into those applications, because it is almost guaranteed to be wasted effort. Because the bad job market makes it a numbers game. You are making a judgment on people's character, when the reality is a simple question of economics or game theory. I hope you can gain some perspective and start seeing these job applicants with positive empathy rather than negative judgment. It's not about them not being self-directed -- it's about you having unrealistic expectations. I see that you've gotten a lot of responses like this in the comments. I hope you're able to take it as an opportunity for learning and self-reflection -- there's some valuable stuff here for you, despite your post being flagged.

joduplessis 2y ago

> Where are all the self-directed learners? Doing something other than filling out some esoteric BS form. These are possibly the worst kind of job applications in my opinion (coming from someone who has filled some out in my time).

yahoozoo 2y ago

Has India ever had independent thinkers?

mk_chan 2y ago

The article is nice and the intention seems to be good, but it’s not backed up by the fundamentals. The salary range posted in the job listing is low enough that anyone who would answer the questions to my satisfaction (personal opinion) and is an autodidact would instantly ignore the entire listing or leave a year after joining once they realized how valuable the skill they have actually is. Having conducted 50+ interviews with Indian and international candidates, including those from FAANG, you can’t just discount these skills by 50-75% of their value and then post an article asking where they are in good faith.

ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
OP here. The Indian context is important. We have a massive talent pool (many outside the US just don't know how many engineers graduate yearly (1.5 million!) in India ) and we are not competing with FAANG / well-funded startups. There is a lot of raw talent out there. We know because we have been hiring for a long time. Working with us has been the springboard to well paying jobs and senior roles. What we cannot compete on at the moment (salaries) we make up for with growth opportunities and learning (and this isn't us selling this; we have the evidence to back it up). What we might have is a problem where the raw talent doesn't even know how to make a case for themselves. What really surprises me is how the numbers havent increased in this day and age where one can realize that the median college (in India) is awful in educating them and they can find what they need online.

pluto_modadic 2y ago

I think... The problem definitely isn't your applicants. It's your job posting being out of touch, full stop.

karmakaze 2y ago

This is an example of Goodhart's Law, where qualification of entrance (whether to a college or company) is measured, and thus becomes the target for applicants rather than being good at what is being assessed. I for one never really cared about grades and would just sit in class and try to understand what it was really about so that it made sense and could be internalized. I don't think this works anymore where the bar is set artificial high using proxy checks (e.g. leetcode) or having to get past recruiting screeners who have no idea what the job entails.

ChaitanyaSai 2y ago
Absolutely. Wonderful book that talks about this in a different context https://www.amazon.com/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objective/dp/3319155237/ https://www.amazon.com/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objectiv... Also wrote about it here https://blog.comini.in/p/what-should-replace-grades https://blog.comini.in/p/what-should-replace-grades

trod1234 2y ago

Yes there is a growing problem, but the author as many others before him neglect the type of problem being faced. It assumes the problem is that we don't know how to teach better, and that's just wrong. We do know how to teach people, we've done it in the past. The actual problem is one of subversion of the processes involved. There is no accountability for teachers that harm their students in a specific way (i.e. teaching maladaptive behaviors through torture). The prussian model of education has from the beginning been about creating loyal unthinking workers. That history has never changed, and the groups involved support that history through the shadows. Its subtle, but its been happening for almost a hundred years to eliminate rational thought. Torture promotes this outcome, as the experts from the 50s can attest in their written works (Lifton/Meerloo). There is a classical approach to education where you are taught to be independent and think. It came from the greeks, and stood the test of time. If you see a problem with the existing system that is cascading, you need to go back to what worked. A known working state. Its just that simple. Doing so would ruffle a lot of feathers because there are a lot of malevolent people out there in the world today, and part of evil and malevolence is a wilful blindness to the consequences of their actions.

paradox242 2y ago

I can say this is definitely something I have noticed in many coworkers from India, but it's also not exactly uncommon in those who grew up and went to school in America. It really blows my mind how many people become literally paralyzed on step zero if they don't already have step by step instructions to complete the task. Even the suggestion of a simple Google search is received as if it were a revelation from on high.