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Is there a chance the constitution will be changed after all this so the president can't pardon people?

by rwmj 2y ago

dragonwriter 2y ago
It is unlikely that any amendment to the Constitution that would pass (or even a new order of government instituted without amending the Constitution, e.g., by autocoup or violent revolution) would eliminate the pardon power, though it is somewhat more plausible that it might be made either subject to some kind of after-issue review or made non-unilateral, either generally or in particular circumstances.
ycombinatrix 2y ago
Joe Arpaio was pardoned in Trump's first term. Nobody is gonna change anything.
toast0 2y ago
The president can only pardon for federal crimes. I imagine if/when people are tired of federal pardons, that many things will become both state crimes and federal crimes, where that's possible. Some crimes clearly fit only under the federal umbrella, but some are meerly not currently addressed by state law because federal law was seen as sufficient. There's a recent supreme court decision that says trying someone for the same conduct in state and federal courts is fine [1], so it just becomes a question of if the federally pardoned conduct also violates a state law of a state that's relevant. In this case, where the victims are numerous, if SBF were pardoned, the question would be do any of the 50 states have a fraud law that was violated. Or indeed, if any other countries do and if they can get an extradition arranged. I don't know if a federal pardon would prevent US cooperation in extradition? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamble_v._United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamble_v._United_States
Ankaios 2y ago
Here's a proposal for an amendment restricting the pardon power: https://cohen.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/congressman-cohen-reintroduces-amendment-constitution-clarify-and-limit https://cohen.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/congress... Here's the proposed text: SECTION 1. The President shall not have the power to grant pardons and reprieves to— (1) the President’s self; (2) any person, up to a third degree relation, of the President, or a spouse thereof; (3) any current or former member of the President’s administration; (4) any person who worked on the President’s presidential campaign as a paid employee; (5) any person or entity for an offense that was motivated by a direct and significant personal or pecuniary interest of any of the foregoing persons; or (6) any person or entity for an offense that was at the direction of, or in coordination with, the President. Any pardon issued for a corrupt purpose shall be invalid. SECTION 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
- raincom 2y ago
  Even if this law passes, it will face a problem of violating the constitution: ArtII.S2.C1.3.1
  - cvz 2y ago
    It wouldn't be an ordinary law, it would be a constitutional amendment, so that wouldn't be an issue. It's probably not going to happen, though. Amending the U.S. constitution is incredibly difficult.
kelnos 2y ago
Not really. Political polarization means constitutional amendments for anything remotely contentious are basically impossible.
rurp 2y ago
It's essentially impossible to get the consensus needed in such a partian era. Maybe if and when we're in a different era, but that could be an awfully long time coming.

Is there a chance the constitution will be changed after all this so the president can't pardon people?

by rwmj 2y ago

Is there a chance the constitution will be changed after all this so the president can't pardon people?

It is unlikely that any amendment to the Constitution that would pass (or even a new order of government instituted without amending the Constitution, e.g., by autocoup or violent revolution) would eliminate the pardon power, though it is somewhat more plausible that it might be made either subject to some kind of after-issue review or made non-unilateral, either generally or in particular circumstances.

ycombinatrix 2y ago

Joe Arpaio was pardoned in Trump's first term. Nobody is gonna change anything.

toast0 2y ago

The president can only pardon for federal crimes. I imagine if/when people are tired of federal pardons, that many things will become both state crimes and federal crimes, where that's possible. Some crimes clearly fit only under the federal umbrella, but some are meerly not currently addressed by state law because federal law was seen as sufficient. There's a recent supreme court decision that says trying someone for the same conduct in state and federal courts is fine [1], so it just becomes a question of if the federally pardoned conduct also violates a state law of a state that's relevant. In this case, where the victims are numerous, if SBF were pardoned, the question would be do any of the 50 states have a fraud law that was violated. Or indeed, if any other countries do and if they can get an extradition arranged. I don't know if a federal pardon would prevent US cooperation in extradition? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamble_v._United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamble_v._United_States

Ankaios 2y ago

Here's a proposal for an amendment restricting the pardon power: https://cohen.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/congressman-cohen-reintroduces-amendment-constitution-clarify-and-limit https://cohen.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/congress... Here's the proposed text: SECTION 1. The President shall not have the power to grant pardons and reprieves to— (1) the President’s self; (2) any person, up to a third degree relation, of the President, or a spouse thereof; (3) any current or former member of the President’s administration; (4) any person who worked on the President’s presidential campaign as a paid employee; (5) any person or entity for an offense that was motivated by a direct and significant personal or pecuniary interest of any of the foregoing persons; or (6) any person or entity for an offense that was at the direction of, or in coordination with, the President. Any pardon issued for a corrupt purpose shall be invalid. SECTION 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

raincom 2y ago
Even if this law passes, it will face a problem of violating the constitution: ArtII.S2.C1.3.1
- cvz 2y ago
  It wouldn't be an ordinary law, it would be a constitutional amendment, so that wouldn't be an issue. It's probably not going to happen, though. Amending the U.S. constitution is incredibly difficult.

kelnos 2y ago

Not really. Political polarization means constitutional amendments for anything remotely contentious are basically impossible.

rurp 2y ago

It's essentially impossible to get the consensus needed in such a partian era. Maybe if and when we're in a different era, but that could be an awfully long time coming.