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Aside from the lack of convenient ring I'd say that sometimes it's quite a useful framing. To avoid derailing into politics I'll use Nazi Germany as another exa

Aside from the lack of convenient ring I'd say that sometimes it's quite a useful framing. To avoid derailing into politics I'll use Nazi Germany as another example.

t-3 2y ago
Funny you bring them up, I was going to use them as an example but didn't want to Godwin. The Nazis had a black-and-white ideological viewpoint and seemed to believe themselves to be heroes fighting to save their people from evil Jews and their brainwashed minions. Do you see why those narratives are so dangerous now?
- nathan_compton 2y ago
  I guess it strikes me as weird that we can't just say "Well, yes, 'both sides' thought they were right but in fact one (the Nazis) was wrong." To be sure, there are situations where there is some genuinely complicated moral situation. But that doesn't mean we have to pretend to be moral morons and sagely nod our heads and say "Yes, but Nazis thought they were right too, hmm, hmm."
  - t-3 2y ago
    You're not even wrong. No sane person has said we can't judge Nazis for what they did and believed. What we shouldn't do is set ourselves up to fall into the same trap by using binary narrative framings.
    - squigz 2y ago
      Falling into the other trap of treating both sides of every conflict as equally valid is probably just as dangerous, no?
      - t-3 2y ago
        We can start by not separating everything into two sides, one of which we must take. Look at each conflict as a whole rather than a sports game with a winner and a loser or a Good and an Evil or a My Team and Their Team. Maybe one side really is actually very bad and needs to be stopped. Maybe there are other ways.
        squigz 2y ago
        There are times when this is true and admirable - "us vs them" rhetoric in political discourse is indeed harmful and only serves to help those in power - but there are times when it's more dangerous to treat both sides as equally valid that we should both listen to - like when a superpower invades another country and wages a war for years.
  - xandrius 2y ago
    They both thought they were right but only one knee they were doing good. I cannot believe any Nazi thought they were actually "good", I would understand if they thought their action were needed but definitely killing millions of non-combatants cannot be seen as good; in the right light it can be seen as non-evil given the circumstances.
    - wat10000 2y ago
      If one truly believes that it’s “us or them,” and that your enemies are inherently, genetically irredeemable, then exterminating them is good. The problem, of course, is that belief. It’s catastrophically wrong. And it’s the sort of thing that black and white good vs evil thinking can lead you towards. We can simultaneously say “the Nazis thought they were good” and “the Nazis were profoundly evil.” We can acknowledge the relativity of perspective without needing to apply a relativity of good and evil. A necessary element of true goodness is a willingness to consider new ideas, a constant reevaluation of one’s beliefs, and an acknowledgment that the world is complicated and messy. Someone who does these things can justifiably conclude that they’re good and the other guys are evil, but you have to maintain that openness and reevaluation or you can slide into Good vs Evil where you can see no wrong on your own side, and that leads to disaster.
    - computerthings 2y ago
      [dead]
  - fulafel 2y ago
    Before they started a war they were mainstream-acceptable in the USA. Henry Ford, Charles Couglin, Friends of New Germany etc. It can be argued the mainstream culture / value system doesn't reject Nazism because it's evil, but because they were "the enemy" in WW2.
    - nathan_compton 2y ago
      All this tells me is that your average american is a moral midget, which is not surprising to me.
      - DennisP 2y ago
        The average Americans went to war and defeated the Nazis.
        antihipocrat 2y ago
        The average person can be fooled into supporting anything most of the time. The list of bad wars Americans have supported (at least initially) is longer than the good ones. Normative language used as shorthand for current consensus for whether the conflict was justified given the likely alternative outcomes for not engaging.
    - majormajor 2y ago
      "things changed as more and more facts came out" is learning and changing hypocrisy?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- Woodi 2y ago
  > Do you see why those narratives are so dangerous now? Only when they are "narratives". When they are caution stories from historical facts we want to avoid repiting then they are not so stigmatising but a warnins. Nobody should trow that storises again and again and some behaviour schamas should be always avoided. Unluckily that stories need to be reminded from time to time. Even better: people should not only know about WWII-nazi-communism works but should know broad historical contects - what bring that evilness to Earth: communistic imperialism wanting to take over globe and using Germany poor situation (eg. sponsoring nazi party) after WWI to make attempt at concuering Europe (first). Or maybe it was just another part of "Great Game" and reaults with using new technologies are worse and worse...
- variaga 2y ago
  In opposition to the Nazi tenets (and your characterization of it as being "black and white"), LOTR explicitly counsels mercy and not being too confident in your judgements. "What a pity Bilbo did not stab the vile creature, when he had a chance! Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death. Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." -The Two Towers
- DennisP 2y ago
  Well, yeah, but they also started a giant war of conquest and killed nine million civilians in gas chambers, so I'm still gonna say they were on the evil side even if they used similar narratives themselves. There's a point where the "both sides" thing finally breaks down. If we don't have enough moral clarity to say the Nazis were bad, then we're really in trouble.

Aside from the lack of convenient ring I'd say that sometimes it's quite a useful framing. To avoid derailing into politics I'll use Nazi Germany as another example.

t-3 2y ago

Funny you bring them up, I was going to use them as an example but didn't want to Godwin. The Nazis had a black-and-white ideological viewpoint and seemed to believe themselves to be heroes fighting to save their people from evil Jews and their brainwashed minions. Do you see why those narratives are so dangerous now?

nathan_compton 2y ago
I guess it strikes me as weird that we can't just say "Well, yes, 'both sides' thought they were right but in fact one (the Nazis) was wrong." To be sure, there are situations where there is some genuinely complicated moral situation. But that doesn't mean we have to pretend to be moral morons and sagely nod our heads and say "Yes, but Nazis thought they were right too, hmm, hmm."
- t-3 2y ago
  You're not even wrong. No sane person has said we can't judge Nazis for what they did and believed. What we shouldn't do is set ourselves up to fall into the same trap by using binary narrative framings.
  - squigz 2y ago
    Falling into the other trap of treating both sides of every conflict as equally valid is probably just as dangerous, no?
    - t-3 2y ago
      We can start by not separating everything into two sides, one of which we must take. Look at each conflict as a whole rather than a sports game with a winner and a loser or a Good and an Evil or a My Team and Their Team. Maybe one side really is actually very bad and needs to be stopped. Maybe there are other ways.
      - squigz 2y ago
        There are times when this is true and admirable - "us vs them" rhetoric in political discourse is indeed harmful and only serves to help those in power - but there are times when it's more dangerous to treat both sides as equally valid that we should both listen to - like when a superpower invades another country and wages a war for years.
- xandrius 2y ago
  They both thought they were right but only one knee they were doing good. I cannot believe any Nazi thought they were actually "good", I would understand if they thought their action were needed but definitely killing millions of non-combatants cannot be seen as good; in the right light it can be seen as non-evil given the circumstances.
  - wat10000 2y ago
    If one truly believes that it’s “us or them,” and that your enemies are inherently, genetically irredeemable, then exterminating them is good. The problem, of course, is that belief. It’s catastrophically wrong. And it’s the sort of thing that black and white good vs evil thinking can lead you towards. We can simultaneously say “the Nazis thought they were good” and “the Nazis were profoundly evil.” We can acknowledge the relativity of perspective without needing to apply a relativity of good and evil. A necessary element of true goodness is a willingness to consider new ideas, a constant reevaluation of one’s beliefs, and an acknowledgment that the world is complicated and messy. Someone who does these things can justifiably conclude that they’re good and the other guys are evil, but you have to maintain that openness and reevaluation or you can slide into Good vs Evil where you can see no wrong on your own side, and that leads to disaster.
  - computerthings 2y ago
    [dead]
- fulafel 2y ago
  Before they started a war they were mainstream-acceptable in the USA. Henry Ford, Charles Couglin, Friends of New Germany etc. It can be argued the mainstream culture / value system doesn't reject Nazism because it's evil, but because they were "the enemy" in WW2.
  - nathan_compton 2y ago
    All this tells me is that your average american is a moral midget, which is not surprising to me.
    - DennisP 2y ago
      The average Americans went to war and defeated the Nazis.
      - antihipocrat 2y ago
        The average person can be fooled into supporting anything most of the time. The list of bad wars Americans have supported (at least initially) is longer than the good ones. Normative language used as shorthand for current consensus for whether the conflict was justified given the likely alternative outcomes for not engaging.
  - majormajor 2y ago
    "things changed as more and more facts came out" is learning and changing hypocrisy?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
Woodi 2y ago
> Do you see why those narratives are so dangerous now? Only when they are "narratives". When they are caution stories from historical facts we want to avoid repiting then they are not so stigmatising but a warnins. Nobody should trow that storises again and again and some behaviour schamas should be always avoided. Unluckily that stories need to be reminded from time to time. Even better: people should not only know about WWII-nazi-communism works but should know broad historical contects - what bring that evilness to Earth: communistic imperialism wanting to take over globe and using Germany poor situation (eg. sponsoring nazi party) after WWI to make attempt at concuering Europe (first). Or maybe it was just another part of "Great Game" and reaults with using new technologies are worse and worse...
variaga 2y ago
In opposition to the Nazi tenets (and your characterization of it as being "black and white"), LOTR explicitly counsels mercy and not being too confident in your judgements. "What a pity Bilbo did not stab the vile creature, when he had a chance! Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death. Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." -The Two Towers
DennisP 2y ago
Well, yeah, but they also started a giant war of conquest and killed nine million civilians in gas chambers, so I'm still gonna say they were on the evil side even if they used similar narratives themselves. There's a point where the "both sides" thing finally breaks down. If we don't have enough moral clarity to say the Nazis were bad, then we're really in trouble.