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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox Food waste will not be addressed properly without cultural shifts. Gr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox Food waste will not be addressed properly without cultural shifts. Granted, certain technological improvements may prompt them, but that's a bit backwards of a problem solving method.

cjbgkagh 2y ago
I wonder if things like tipping culture will encourage people to eat at home and be more mindful about their consumption. I hate being extorted for 25% tips and then told if I can’t afford the 25% then I shouldn’t be eating out. Kind of how the hatred of dealing with printer companies and their extortionist ink prices accelerated the shift to paperless. So maybe we’ll get to a better state, perhaps not through the means we expected.
- rwyinuse 2y ago
  I bet current US government's economic policies will be even more effective at reducing food waste. Food waste will be radically reduced when the prices skyrocket, and the masses can barely afford their groceries, let alone eating out. Tariffs combined with deportations of agricultural labor will likely lead to that outcome.
- pipe2devnull 2y ago
  25%? That’s so high. Most places in the USA I feel like 18-20% is the norm
  - eigenspace 2y ago
    18-20% is already completely insane.
  - marky1991 2y ago
    I was always taught that 15% is the standard and that's all I give.
    - dehrmann 2y ago
      It was in 1995. We briefly flirted with 18%, but it's 20% now. At least for restaurants, taxis, and barbers. I've been prompted for tips at self checkout kiosks and tip a generous 0%.
      - marky1991 2y ago
        Why should the percentage change over time? Given that it's a percentage it already accounts for inflation, so I see no reason to ever change the default.
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
    I don't remember where, I think the reason 25% sticks in my mind is because I usually do 20% and tend not to think about it. I did stop going to restaurants because of it but I would still go to fast food / take outs and then they started requesting tips before they even made the food. The increased in cost on top of the tip felt like small scale extortion - what are you going to do to the food if I don't pay. So now I just cook at home and save a bunch of money and I wonder how many others are doing the same.
  - scns 2y ago
    10% is the norm here.
- hx8 2y ago
  I'm not sure that eating out solves the food waste problem. I'll agree that in theory centralizing food preparation could lead to increased efficiency, but in practice eating out is most often either a luxury or convince experience and emphasizes those two things much more than cost or efficiency. Maybe one day automation can reduce labor costs allowing restaurants to sell cheaper food, but no one has seemed to figure out that problem yet. In addition to price (which is a function of efficiency), I wouldn't shift any more of my eating behavior to out of the house until the following problems are solved. * Portion sizes. I usually eat 600-800 calories in a sitting at home. This portion size is considered a light meal in restaurants, and generally has less appealing options and ordering it sends weird social signals. * Healthier food. Most restaurants use more oils and salt than my preference. The vegetables and fruit are usually less fresh than even Walmart/Kroger offers. * Time investment. I can cook and clean maybe 25 different dishes in less than 20 minutes of focused work at home. Much more if you count semi-prepared foods that come frozen or in boxes. The only thing that competes with time investment is hot food delivery, which comes at about a 8x price premium compared to cooking.
  - AJ007 2y ago
    Another problem is you have no transparency with what ingredients restaurants are really using. Even if you know today, with certainty, you can't be sure tomorrow. Usually small chains will start out very high on the quality scale for suppliers and ingredients, and then swap them out as they scale/suddenly need to not lose money. Food is tricky because once you have food processed or prepared, and you don't have the raw ingredients, you really have no fucking clue what you are ingesting. Most people act, and assume that they do.
- batch12 2y ago
  I used to wait tables. With that said, I also don't like that wait staff costs are hidden from the menu price of a meal. It also seems very rich person cosplay to decide how much I should pay my servant wench after a meal. Even more irritating is the request to tip now for almost any food purchase and to-go order at the register. One doesn't even know where that tip goes. The food prep person? Cook? Expo? Split? To the restaurant? Who knows?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
karmakaze 2y ago
The price of bananas are artificially low anyway, so increasing delivery efficiency will make the same prices less artificial.
thih9 2y ago
> Increasing the yield of a crop, such as wheat, for a given area will reduce the area required to achieve the same total yield. However, increasing efficiency may make it more profitable to grow wheat and lead farmers to convert land to the production of wheat, thereby increasing land use instead. Off topic, if we apply this to AI, in theory we could work less, with AI making us more efficient and allowing us to achieve the same results. But because we are humans, we are going to value our work less, and ask ourselves to work more.
marky1991 2y ago
From the wikipedia article: "As an example of where the paradox did not occur, large improvements in farming productivity (including the Third Agricultural Revolution) led to lower food prices but did not result in increased demand for food. (Demand for food is inelastic.) This instead led to lower employment in the farming sector, which declined from 40% of Americans in 1900 to less than 2% in 2024.[14]" But generally, I don't see the relevance. Jevon's paradox is about lowered costs driving further demand; how does a non-browning banana lower the cost of bananas?
- vacuity 2y ago
  Thank you for pointing out that food demand is inelastic, that does shift my perspective somewhat. A complication about demand for food is that American culture promotes luxury and overindulgence. Still not elastic, but more food waste than is "normal". In general, buying more food should cause more food waste. > But generally, I don't see the relevance. Jevon's paradox is about lowered costs driving further demand; how does a non-browning banana lower the cost of bananas? I think cost is not as relevant here, moreso that people will buy more bananas, as they will brown less quickly, but will often overshoot.
  - neoecos 2y ago
    I'm guessing the impact on this from the GLP drugs. I remember a post last week about the impact on the economy of the growing usage of this appetite suppression drugs.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    Overall food demand is inelastic, people can only eat so much. But specific foods can absolutely be elastic, different types of food kind of come in and out of vogue (avocado usage in the US is massively up over the last few decades).
knowitnone 2y ago
I have close to 0 food waste. My small refridgerator sits empty often. I buy enough fresh food(meats, veggies_ for a 3 days and go get more when I have close to or at 0. Most people's refridgerators are completely full and most times, they don't even know what's in there.

cjbgkagh 2y ago

I wonder if things like tipping culture will encourage people to eat at home and be more mindful about their consumption. I hate being extorted for 25% tips and then told if I can’t afford the 25% then I shouldn’t be eating out. Kind of how the hatred of dealing with printer companies and their extortionist ink prices accelerated the shift to paperless. So maybe we’ll get to a better state, perhaps not through the means we expected.

rwyinuse 2y ago
I bet current US government's economic policies will be even more effective at reducing food waste. Food waste will be radically reduced when the prices skyrocket, and the masses can barely afford their groceries, let alone eating out. Tariffs combined with deportations of agricultural labor will likely lead to that outcome.
pipe2devnull 2y ago
25%? That’s so high. Most places in the USA I feel like 18-20% is the norm
- eigenspace 2y ago
  18-20% is already completely insane.
- marky1991 2y ago
  I was always taught that 15% is the standard and that's all I give.
  - dehrmann 2y ago
    It was in 1995. We briefly flirted with 18%, but it's 20% now. At least for restaurants, taxis, and barbers. I've been prompted for tips at self checkout kiosks and tip a generous 0%.
    - marky1991 2y ago
      Why should the percentage change over time? Given that it's a percentage it already accounts for inflation, so I see no reason to ever change the default.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  I don't remember where, I think the reason 25% sticks in my mind is because I usually do 20% and tend not to think about it. I did stop going to restaurants because of it but I would still go to fast food / take outs and then they started requesting tips before they even made the food. The increased in cost on top of the tip felt like small scale extortion - what are you going to do to the food if I don't pay. So now I just cook at home and save a bunch of money and I wonder how many others are doing the same.
- scns 2y ago
  10% is the norm here.
hx8 2y ago
I'm not sure that eating out solves the food waste problem. I'll agree that in theory centralizing food preparation could lead to increased efficiency, but in practice eating out is most often either a luxury or convince experience and emphasizes those two things much more than cost or efficiency. Maybe one day automation can reduce labor costs allowing restaurants to sell cheaper food, but no one has seemed to figure out that problem yet. In addition to price (which is a function of efficiency), I wouldn't shift any more of my eating behavior to out of the house until the following problems are solved. * Portion sizes. I usually eat 600-800 calories in a sitting at home. This portion size is considered a light meal in restaurants, and generally has less appealing options and ordering it sends weird social signals. * Healthier food. Most restaurants use more oils and salt than my preference. The vegetables and fruit are usually less fresh than even Walmart/Kroger offers. * Time investment. I can cook and clean maybe 25 different dishes in less than 20 minutes of focused work at home. Much more if you count semi-prepared foods that come frozen or in boxes. The only thing that competes with time investment is hot food delivery, which comes at about a 8x price premium compared to cooking.
- AJ007 2y ago
  Another problem is you have no transparency with what ingredients restaurants are really using. Even if you know today, with certainty, you can't be sure tomorrow. Usually small chains will start out very high on the quality scale for suppliers and ingredients, and then swap them out as they scale/suddenly need to not lose money. Food is tricky because once you have food processed or prepared, and you don't have the raw ingredients, you really have no fucking clue what you are ingesting. Most people act, and assume that they do.
batch12 2y ago
I used to wait tables. With that said, I also don't like that wait staff costs are hidden from the menu price of a meal. It also seems very rich person cosplay to decide how much I should pay my servant wench after a meal. Even more irritating is the request to tip now for almost any food purchase and to-go order at the register. One doesn't even know where that tip goes. The food prep person? Cook? Expo? Split? To the restaurant? Who knows?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

karmakaze 2y ago

The price of bananas are artificially low anyway, so increasing delivery efficiency will make the same prices less artificial.

thih9 2y ago

> Increasing the yield of a crop, such as wheat, for a given area will reduce the area required to achieve the same total yield. However, increasing efficiency may make it more profitable to grow wheat and lead farmers to convert land to the production of wheat, thereby increasing land use instead. Off topic, if we apply this to AI, in theory we could work less, with AI making us more efficient and allowing us to achieve the same results. But because we are humans, we are going to value our work less, and ask ourselves to work more.

marky1991 2y ago

From the wikipedia article: "As an example of where the paradox did not occur, large improvements in farming productivity (including the Third Agricultural Revolution) led to lower food prices but did not result in increased demand for food. (Demand for food is inelastic.) This instead led to lower employment in the farming sector, which declined from 40% of Americans in 1900 to less than 2% in 2024.[14]" But generally, I don't see the relevance. Jevon's paradox is about lowered costs driving further demand; how does a non-browning banana lower the cost of bananas?

vacuity 2y ago
Thank you for pointing out that food demand is inelastic, that does shift my perspective somewhat. A complication about demand for food is that American culture promotes luxury and overindulgence. Still not elastic, but more food waste than is "normal". In general, buying more food should cause more food waste. > But generally, I don't see the relevance. Jevon's paradox is about lowered costs driving further demand; how does a non-browning banana lower the cost of bananas? I think cost is not as relevant here, moreso that people will buy more bananas, as they will brown less quickly, but will often overshoot.
- neoecos 2y ago
  I'm guessing the impact on this from the GLP drugs. I remember a post last week about the impact on the economy of the growing usage of this appetite suppression drugs.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  Overall food demand is inelastic, people can only eat so much. But specific foods can absolutely be elastic, different types of food kind of come in and out of vogue (avocado usage in the US is massively up over the last few decades).

knowitnone 2y ago

I have close to 0 food waste. My small refridgerator sits empty often. I buy enough fresh food(meats, veggies_ for a 3 days and go get more when I have close to or at 0. Most people's refridgerators are completely full and most times, they don't even know what's in there.