5 ms·

I think it's acceptable if they have good reason to believe the gene editing isn't going to lead to a trait that harms the animal. I think fluffier fur isn't a

I think it's acceptable if they have good reason to believe the gene editing isn't going to lead to a trait that harms the animal. I think fluffier fur isn't a big deal. And I say this as a vegetarian and a huge supporter of animal rights. Inducing Parkinsonian symptoms or removing limbs is very different from some cosmetic changes. Maybe they also need to be kept in cooler environments or something, but assuming they accommodate that, this doesn't seem cruel to me.

zabzonk 2y ago
I dunno - the right-hand mouse doesn't look so healthy around the face. Just to be clear, I've killed quite a few mice in my time (traps, poison, cat) when they become nuisances. I'm not sentimental about them at all, but I do draw the line at actual cruelty.
- esperent 2y ago
  To me, who has safely trapped a ton of mice (around 15 I think, over the last couple of years), and then driven way out into the nearest wild area and released them unharmed, using killing traps or poison is cruel. I don't especially judge you for it. Well, maybe for the poison since that can get into the food chain. But I also don't think you have some kind of moral high ground compared to these researchers.
  - quesera 2y ago
    The survival chances of relocated mice are basically nil. You are deluding yourself to make yourself feel better. No judgement, I've done it too. But now we both know better.
    - TylerE 2y ago
      I mean, the average wild mouse lives a year or so, tops. Small rodents are not long lived.
    - meowface 2y ago
      I think giving them a chance does make a real difference compared to killing them on the spot.
      - quesera 2y ago
        But it doesn't. It just makes you feel better about it. If anything, relocating makes the mouse more likely to die slowly and painfully. So, your options are: definitely quick and easy, with some ick factor for you? Or false feelings of good-doing, followed by nearly certain starvation, dehydration, exposure, and/or predation? The honest option is to get over your own squeamishness and not be the feel-good torturer.
        meowface 2y ago
        Do you have solid evidence?
    - esperent 2y ago
      I already knew this. When it became apparent that I'd need to do pest control, I did some research and figured out what was the path of least cruelty, being fully aware that zero cruelty isn't an option. I relocate them near to an old dump that people still use illegally. I figured there's more places to shelter there and plenty of good around. Yes, they have a higher chance of dying than staying in my cosy house. But it's not like I'm dumping them in a desert, and when they do die, it'll be part of the natural food chain, providing a meal to an owl or a fox. If I could be sure that a spring trap would kill instantly, I'd choose that instead. I would never choose poison or glue traps.
  - zabzonk 2y ago
    Traps at least are not cruel - usually almost instant death by their neck being broken. Cats are natural predators. I don't much like using poison, but sometimes you have to. I have never claimed any high moral ground, just that the deaths I'm talking about are quick, rather than them (or any animal) being bred to suffer.
    - esperent 2y ago
      > Traps at least are not cruel - usually almost instant death by their neck being broken. This is far from true. Traps very often breaks the mouses lower back, or trap just a leg, and leave them struggling for hours. Poison is definitely not quick and can cause the suffering of many animals in the food chain. You are still claiming a moral high ground because you believe that the animals you cause to suffer die quickly. This is an incorrect belief.

zabzonk 2y ago

I dunno - the right-hand mouse doesn't look so healthy around the face. Just to be clear, I've killed quite a few mice in my time (traps, poison, cat) when they become nuisances. I'm not sentimental about them at all, but I do draw the line at actual cruelty.

esperent 2y ago
To me, who has safely trapped a ton of mice (around 15 I think, over the last couple of years), and then driven way out into the nearest wild area and released them unharmed, using killing traps or poison is cruel. I don't especially judge you for it. Well, maybe for the poison since that can get into the food chain. But I also don't think you have some kind of moral high ground compared to these researchers.
- quesera 2y ago
  The survival chances of relocated mice are basically nil. You are deluding yourself to make yourself feel better. No judgement, I've done it too. But now we both know better.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    I mean, the average wild mouse lives a year or so, tops. Small rodents are not long lived.
  - meowface 2y ago
    I think giving them a chance does make a real difference compared to killing them on the spot.
    - quesera 2y ago
      But it doesn't. It just makes you feel better about it. If anything, relocating makes the mouse more likely to die slowly and painfully. So, your options are: definitely quick and easy, with some ick factor for you? Or false feelings of good-doing, followed by nearly certain starvation, dehydration, exposure, and/or predation? The honest option is to get over your own squeamishness and not be the feel-good torturer.
      - meowface 2y ago
        Do you have solid evidence?
  - esperent 2y ago
    I already knew this. When it became apparent that I'd need to do pest control, I did some research and figured out what was the path of least cruelty, being fully aware that zero cruelty isn't an option. I relocate them near to an old dump that people still use illegally. I figured there's more places to shelter there and plenty of good around. Yes, they have a higher chance of dying than staying in my cosy house. But it's not like I'm dumping them in a desert, and when they do die, it'll be part of the natural food chain, providing a meal to an owl or a fox. If I could be sure that a spring trap would kill instantly, I'd choose that instead. I would never choose poison or glue traps.
- zabzonk 2y ago
  Traps at least are not cruel - usually almost instant death by their neck being broken. Cats are natural predators. I don't much like using poison, but sometimes you have to. I have never claimed any high moral ground, just that the deaths I'm talking about are quick, rather than them (or any animal) being bred to suffer.
  - esperent 2y ago
    > Traps at least are not cruel - usually almost instant death by their neck being broken. This is far from true. Traps very often breaks the mouses lower back, or trap just a leg, and leave them struggling for hours. Poison is definitely not quick and can cause the suffering of many animals in the food chain. You are still claiming a moral high ground because you believe that the animals you cause to suffer die quickly. This is an incorrect belief.