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I agree with everything except the last paragraph. China is not a shining example of a nation peacefully making wonderful things happen for their citizens. The

I agree with everything except the last paragraph. China is not a shining example of a nation peacefully making wonderful things happen for their citizens. The Chinese government is known to be persecuting people on political and religious grounds. Their mass abuse and unjustified violence towards the Falun Gong, Christians, Uyghurs, and basically anyone who refuses to bend a knee to the Party is well documented, and is a pattern that has continued for decades. I'm sure the US government also does horrible things, but it's not nearly as violent towards its own citizens, and doesn't persecute people nearly as much.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Those in charge and seeking power in the US are Christian Nationalists. They are the other side of the Chinese coin, simply not as effective at implementation of policy and subjugation of the out group. The shared theme is power over others, instead of empowerment and respect of agency and autonomy of the human (each for their own reasons and belief systems).
rhelz 2y ago
We should certainly not whitewash the Chinese. But let's not whitewash ourselves, ether. Last semester, I taught Calculus at an urban school. One day, a student came up to me and asked if I had anything to eat. Shock. I went to the school's social worker, and she said that yes, 1 in 5 of their students had no idea where their next meal was coming from. About 10% of the students were so tired that the slept thorough class. Turns out, they were working the night shift, in order to help their parents put food on the table. This is technically against the law, but "bloated bureaucratic regulations" had been loosened and the schools no longer have any obligation or authority to report how many hours its high school students are working. That is now left to the companies, who of course will do so even though there is nobody checking the accuracy of their reports. Yes, we have literal Dickensonean child labor happening in our cities. Of course, when these children graduate, they will not have an education, and so their children will have to repeat the cycle all over again. But the city does have a very nice supply of cheap labor. I don't like some of the things happening in China either. But I live here, and until we clean up our own act I don't feel like pointing fingers. It remains the case that China has raised HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people out of poverty and into the middle class. For all its faults, it has managed to create a middle class larger than the entire population of the U.S.
- selfhoster11 2y ago
  Re: not pointing fingers unless one cleans up their own fact: I see what you mean, but you are totally allowed to say both sides suck. Which is why I'm doing that. I also consider the "raised hundreds of millions of people out of poverty" argument to be propaganda unless proven otherwise: 1. A proper government that isn't the CCP could have also pulled this off. 2. Even if it's true, then at what cost? There is no point to wealth if you lose your soul. No freedom of speech or thought, erasure of parts of pre-CCP culture, persecution of millions belonging to minorities, unsafe buildings, products and equipment, that's just the quantified tip of the iceberg. If we're looking at this transactionally (give us power and we'll take care of the material needs), the Chinese people overpaid by a huge margin.
  - rhelz 2y ago
    // to be propaganda unless proven otherwise // How do I know if I'm even talking with a person, and not a propaganda bot, until proven otherwise? Then again, you might think I'm a propaganda bot. Who would shill for China like that? I don't really care whether or not you believe that China has raised hundreds of millions of people into the middle class. But if we have an extended trade war with China, Canada, Mexico -- our biggest trading partners -- there will be be millions of Americans who will fall out of the middle class into poverty.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Those in charge and seeking power in the US are Christian Nationalists. They are the other side of the Chinese coin, simply not as effective at implementation of policy and subjugation of the out group. The shared theme is power over others, instead of empowerment and respect of agency and autonomy of the human (each for their own reasons and belief systems).

rhelz 2y ago

We should certainly not whitewash the Chinese. But let's not whitewash ourselves, ether. Last semester, I taught Calculus at an urban school. One day, a student came up to me and asked if I had anything to eat. Shock. I went to the school's social worker, and she said that yes, 1 in 5 of their students had no idea where their next meal was coming from. About 10% of the students were so tired that the slept thorough class. Turns out, they were working the night shift, in order to help their parents put food on the table. This is technically against the law, but "bloated bureaucratic regulations" had been loosened and the schools no longer have any obligation or authority to report how many hours its high school students are working. That is now left to the companies, who of course will do so even though there is nobody checking the accuracy of their reports. Yes, we have literal Dickensonean child labor happening in our cities. Of course, when these children graduate, they will not have an education, and so their children will have to repeat the cycle all over again. But the city does have a very nice supply of cheap labor. I don't like some of the things happening in China either. But I live here, and until we clean up our own act I don't feel like pointing fingers. It remains the case that China has raised HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people out of poverty and into the middle class. For all its faults, it has managed to create a middle class larger than the entire population of the U.S.

selfhoster11 2y ago
Re: not pointing fingers unless one cleans up their own fact: I see what you mean, but you are totally allowed to say both sides suck. Which is why I'm doing that. I also consider the "raised hundreds of millions of people out of poverty" argument to be propaganda unless proven otherwise: 1. A proper government that isn't the CCP could have also pulled this off. 2. Even if it's true, then at what cost? There is no point to wealth if you lose your soul. No freedom of speech or thought, erasure of parts of pre-CCP culture, persecution of millions belonging to minorities, unsafe buildings, products and equipment, that's just the quantified tip of the iceberg. If we're looking at this transactionally (give us power and we'll take care of the material needs), the Chinese people overpaid by a huge margin.
- rhelz 2y ago
  // to be propaganda unless proven otherwise // How do I know if I'm even talking with a person, and not a propaganda bot, until proven otherwise? Then again, you might think I'm a propaganda bot. Who would shill for China like that? I don't really care whether or not you believe that China has raised hundreds of millions of people into the middle class. But if we have an extended trade war with China, Canada, Mexico -- our biggest trading partners -- there will be be millions of Americans who will fall out of the middle class into poverty.