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> listen to anyone In late 2010 Germany decreed a 12-year delay for their nuclear phase-out plan. Then in March 2011 the Fukushima nuclear accident happened,

> listen to anyone In late 2010 Germany decreed a 12-year delay for their nuclear phase-out plan. Then in March 2011 the Fukushima nuclear accident happened, and public opinion took notice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany#Changes_to_phase-out_schedule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany#Chang... France, shock-full of nuclear... now leads the european pack of nations buying natural gas from the US and also from Russia. https://energyandcleanair.org/january-2025-monthly-analysis-of-russian-fossil-fuel-exports-and-sanctions/ https://energyandcleanair.org/january-2025-monthly-analysis-...

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
> Then in March 2011 the Fukushima nuclear accident happened, and public opinion took notice. Yes, plus Merkel was about to lose the election and she caved in.
- natmaka 2y ago
  It was not about caving in but about democracy, that is to say respecting what a vast majority of electors wanted. Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29173164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29173164 Effects: https://x.com/HannoKlausmeier/status/1784158942823690561 https://x.com/HannoKlausmeier/status/1784158942823690561
  - account42 2y ago
    It's no longer about democracy when public opinion is largely dictated by government funded television. And yes, the government forcing it citizens to pay directly doesn't make it any less government funded.
    - natmaka 2y ago
      Does "television" here means "lies"? In such a case I already answered: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43328808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43328808 > government forcing it citizens to pay directly doesn't make it any less government funded Sorry, I'm lost. What is "forcing it citizens to pay directly" referring to?
      - account42 2y ago
        > Does "television" here means "lies"? In such a case I already answered: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43328808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43328808 Your linked post is not an answer at all. > Sorry, I'm lost. What is "forcing it citizens to pay directly" referring to? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARD_ZDF_Deutschlandradio_Beitragsservice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARD_ZDF_Deutschlandradio_Beitr... Essentially the government forces you into a contract that you have no say in that is totally not a tax. Because as a tax it would be illegal, so it can't be one.
        natmaka 2y ago
        Yes, this is abusive, however (back to our subject) AFAIK there is free media in Germany (TV, radio, newspapers...), and they enjoy a fair audience. Therefore in Germany public opinion isn't really managed by the government. A. Merkel was pro-nuclear (she holds a PhD in quantum chemistry). During the 2000's she tried hard to slow down the phase-out process, and extended reactors' life in September 2010.
account42 2y ago
> Then in March 2011 the Fukushima nuclear accident happened, and public opinion took notice. The public didn't "take notice" on their own, they were manipulated by a scare campaing from the public news broadcastets.
- natmaka 2y ago
  The officially recognized effects of the nuclear accident are major (2203 victims and a huge and expensive cleanup effort): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cleanup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cle... This is not 'manipulation' but raw facts. They took notice. Moreover it is quite difficult to envision a solar plant or wind turbine fleet cause such disaster, therefore the "but we NEED to be exposed to such ordeal!" became moot during the 2000's.
  - account42 2y ago
    > The officially recognized effects of the nuclear accident are major (2203 victims and a huge and expensive cleanup effort): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cle... 2203 is around of the average aviation deaths per year yet we don't stop building planes. As always with Nuclear a lot of the costs are also because of the extra abundance of caution due to irrational fear - properly cleaning up a coal operation (which is what Germany is currently using for reliable baseload) to the same standards would cost just as much. > This is not 'manipulation' but raw facts. It's fearmongering. The number of victims depends entirely on what you count as a victim. And it depends entirely on the chosen response to the incident much more than the incident itself. > They took notice. Always using the passive voice as if that would hide that this is something being pushed onto the general population. > Moreover it is quite difficult to envision a solar plant or wind turbine fleet cause such disaster, therefore the "but we NEED to be exposed to such ordeal!" became moot during the 2000's. No shit if the energy production is more spread out the incidents will be more spread out as well. And easier to ignore. But not doing less damage in total.
    - 2y ago

rad_gruchalski 2y ago

> Then in March 2011 the Fukushima nuclear accident happened, and public opinion took notice. Yes, plus Merkel was about to lose the election and she caved in.

natmaka 2y ago
It was not about caving in but about democracy, that is to say respecting what a vast majority of electors wanted. Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29173164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29173164 Effects: https://x.com/HannoKlausmeier/status/1784158942823690561 https://x.com/HannoKlausmeier/status/1784158942823690561
- account42 2y ago
  It's no longer about democracy when public opinion is largely dictated by government funded television. And yes, the government forcing it citizens to pay directly doesn't make it any less government funded.
  - natmaka 2y ago
    Does "television" here means "lies"? In such a case I already answered: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43328808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43328808 > government forcing it citizens to pay directly doesn't make it any less government funded Sorry, I'm lost. What is "forcing it citizens to pay directly" referring to?
    - account42 2y ago
      > Does "television" here means "lies"? In such a case I already answered: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43328808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43328808 Your linked post is not an answer at all. > Sorry, I'm lost. What is "forcing it citizens to pay directly" referring to? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARD_ZDF_Deutschlandradio_Beitragsservice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARD_ZDF_Deutschlandradio_Beitr... Essentially the government forces you into a contract that you have no say in that is totally not a tax. Because as a tax it would be illegal, so it can't be one.
      - natmaka 2y ago
        Yes, this is abusive, however (back to our subject) AFAIK there is free media in Germany (TV, radio, newspapers...), and they enjoy a fair audience. Therefore in Germany public opinion isn't really managed by the government. A. Merkel was pro-nuclear (she holds a PhD in quantum chemistry). During the 2000's she tried hard to slow down the phase-out process, and extended reactors' life in September 2010.

account42 2y ago

> Then in March 2011 the Fukushima nuclear accident happened, and public opinion took notice. The public didn't "take notice" on their own, they were manipulated by a scare campaing from the public news broadcastets.

natmaka 2y ago
The officially recognized effects of the nuclear accident are major (2203 victims and a huge and expensive cleanup effort): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cleanup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cle... This is not 'manipulation' but raw facts. They took notice. Moreover it is quite difficult to envision a solar plant or wind turbine fleet cause such disaster, therefore the "but we NEED to be exposed to such ordeal!" became moot during the 2000's.
- account42 2y ago
  > The officially recognized effects of the nuclear accident are major (2203 victims and a huge and expensive cleanup effort): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cle... 2203 is around of the average aviation deaths per year yet we don't stop building planes. As always with Nuclear a lot of the costs are also because of the extra abundance of caution due to irrational fear - properly cleaning up a coal operation (which is what Germany is currently using for reliable baseload) to the same standards would cost just as much. > This is not 'manipulation' but raw facts. It's fearmongering. The number of victims depends entirely on what you count as a victim. And it depends entirely on the chosen response to the incident much more than the incident itself. > They took notice. Always using the passive voice as if that would hide that this is something being pushed onto the general population. > Moreover it is quite difficult to envision a solar plant or wind turbine fleet cause such disaster, therefore the "but we NEED to be exposed to such ordeal!" became moot during the 2000's. No shit if the energy production is more spread out the incidents will be more spread out as well. And easier to ignore. But not doing less damage in total.
  - 2y ago