4 ms·

I've never understood this mentality. Your employer might be the absolute worst but this? This is comitting a crime. To knowingly sabotage a company this way is

by jmyeet 2y ago

I've never understood this mentality. Your employer might be the absolute worst but this? This is comitting a crime. To knowingly sabotage a company this way is a crime. Technical people like to look for technical loopholes in laws and might say things "him not being there to stop it happening doesn't make it a crime" or whatever simply don't understand the law. Likewise, I've never taken a document or a line of code from an employer. There's nothing I've ever written that I couldn't write better if I started again from scratch. And again you were paid to create those things. You might feel ownership over some work product like this but it doesn't belong to you. Whenever I've left a job, whether it's on good terms or bad, I simply brain dump everything I did and knew and put it out of my mind, hopefully never thinking about it ever again. This is your job, not your life.

goldfishgold 2y ago
It says something about the inhumanity of our contemporary culture that people willingly accept that our employers have no obligations to us in any way.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jmyeet 2y ago
  Whatever your employer did, it's not worth you committing a crime and/or having to defend a lawsuit. It's just not. You will suffer way worse than the momentary schadenfreude you get from watching the company suffer. That doesn't mean you can't look out for yourself. You should absolutely. For example, I would advocate for not quitting your job until you start a new one. Things like giving notice are a convention, not a legal requirement (in the US at least; it can vary by country). Companies can rescind job offers. It's better to start. Then they have to lay you off or fire you. If your conditions are really terrible and you have the luxury of just walking then do that. Walk. Immediately. Let them deal with the repercussions.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    Some of the greatest evils in this world were conducted legally. Some of the most moral actions were done by breaking the law.
  - atmavatar 2y ago
    > Whatever your employer did, it's not worth you committing a crime and/or having to defend a lawsuit. It's just not. You will suffer way worse than the momentary schadenfreude you get from watching the company suffer. While I agree in principle that it's generally not worth getting caught for sabotaging a company you've left, I wouldn't categorically state that it's never worth it. I suspect you're unaware of some of the deeply shady stuff some corporations have done. For example, IBM leased Nazi Germany census machines which were instrumental in the identification of Jewish residents during the holocaust, continuing to provide upkeep and service for years. It's been remarked that the concentration camps could never have reached the numbers they did without the aid of IBM's machines. To make things worse: the machines required the use of specialized punch cards which at the time were only provided by IBM, meaning IBM could have cut things off at any time. That's probably one of the most egregious examples, but it's not the only one. Off the top of my head, Coca-cola was alleged to have worked with paramilitary forces to murder union workers in Columbia. Chiquita banana was also revealed to have funded paramilitary groups within Colombia. Playing devil's advocate: there are almost certainly some cases where a person could be forgiven (or even lionized) for sabotaging their employer on the way out.
    - jmyeet 2y ago
      It never ceases to amaze me how even the most inocuous online discourse, such as saying criminal misconduct isn't worth it just because you hate your job, nearly always somehow proves Godwin's Law. We're talking about someone who most likely had a shitty experience at a shitty company for a shitty boss. Most of us has been there. That's all we're talking about. "What if they're making Zyklon B?" They're not. "What if they're funding or otherwise enabling death squads in Myanmar?" They're not. And if they were, why were you (in this case) happy to work for them for 12 years up until you were demoted, knowing this?
- hilux 2y ago
  In non-union America. But not in many (most?) other countries.
- tantalor 2y ago
  > our employers have no obligations to us Except the money they are obligated to give you. For the work you do for the money. Which is paid.
ninetyninenine 2y ago
I’m not making any judgement on this particular event but your rigid way of thinking that because it’s a crime it’s wrong is, well, too rigid. If I was a citizen of North Korea and I assassinated the great leader technically speaking I just committed a crime too. You see the nuance here? Maybe you think because the laws are American and Americans can do no wrong. Extraordinary rendition was completely legal and a thousand times worse than what this guy did. 10 years for this, 0 years for torture. I want to hear his side of the story. How did they fuck him over after he gave them years of work.
- setnone 2y ago
  I'm not judging either but what's the opposite of too rigid?
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    You don’t want to be the opposite either. Too loose means too forgiving nothing is wrong.
- jmyeet 2y ago
  And what evil was Eaton Corporation performing? No, seriously. Put your hyperbolic examples aside that clearly don't fit the facts. And let's say the company was evil in some way. Well, the defendant was happy to keep working for them (12 years in this case) and only started sabotating when he was demoted. So there's not a shred of a moral stand here. It's just pure self-interest, which is fine. But if you go the route of sabotage, don't be surprised if you end up jail. Is that worth it? The answer is no. I'm reminded of a really old Simpsons quote [1]. Alternatively, you just hoard information and make yourself impossible to fire. This article is non-specific about the charge but this article [2] says the charge carries a maximum 10 year sentence, which means it's a felony. So for the rest of his life, he'll be a convicted felon regardless of how much (if any) prison time he gets. That has consequences. It's also strange he went to trial at all. The conviction rate in Federal court is roughly 99%. Most Federal criminal cases plead out. I'd love to know what, if any, plea deal was offered, if he represented himself (pro se) and, if he didn't, how much it cost him. It has to be tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. You see what I mean when I say, it's just not worth it? "What if it was a moral crusade?" you might ask. It wasn't. That's the point. That's why it's not worth it. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtxUiGYrB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtxUiGYrB0 [2]: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/former-eaton-corp-employee-found-guilty-of-sabotaging-company-s-computer-systems/ar-AA1Au8eF https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/former-eaton-corp-...
BurningFrog 2y ago
> I've never understood this mentality. ... This is comitting a crime. Some percentage of the population is criminals. Of various levels. Most are not the completely ruthless kind, but some are. They're all around us, and we need to factor that in to our decisions.
vivzkestrel 2y ago
lets write a book "law for programmers" if ...condition....then crime and fill the entire book with if else conditions like this

by jmyeet 2y ago

goldfishgold 2y ago

It says something about the inhumanity of our contemporary culture that people willingly accept that our employers have no obligations to us in any way.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jmyeet 2y ago
Whatever your employer did, it's not worth you committing a crime and/or having to defend a lawsuit. It's just not. You will suffer way worse than the momentary schadenfreude you get from watching the company suffer. That doesn't mean you can't look out for yourself. You should absolutely. For example, I would advocate for not quitting your job until you start a new one. Things like giving notice are a convention, not a legal requirement (in the US at least; it can vary by country). Companies can rescind job offers. It's better to start. Then they have to lay you off or fire you. If your conditions are really terrible and you have the luxury of just walking then do that. Walk. Immediately. Let them deal with the repercussions.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  Some of the greatest evils in this world were conducted legally. Some of the most moral actions were done by breaking the law.
- atmavatar 2y ago
  > Whatever your employer did, it's not worth you committing a crime and/or having to defend a lawsuit. It's just not. You will suffer way worse than the momentary schadenfreude you get from watching the company suffer. While I agree in principle that it's generally not worth getting caught for sabotaging a company you've left, I wouldn't categorically state that it's never worth it. I suspect you're unaware of some of the deeply shady stuff some corporations have done. For example, IBM leased Nazi Germany census machines which were instrumental in the identification of Jewish residents during the holocaust, continuing to provide upkeep and service for years. It's been remarked that the concentration camps could never have reached the numbers they did without the aid of IBM's machines. To make things worse: the machines required the use of specialized punch cards which at the time were only provided by IBM, meaning IBM could have cut things off at any time. That's probably one of the most egregious examples, but it's not the only one. Off the top of my head, Coca-cola was alleged to have worked with paramilitary forces to murder union workers in Columbia. Chiquita banana was also revealed to have funded paramilitary groups within Colombia. Playing devil's advocate: there are almost certainly some cases where a person could be forgiven (or even lionized) for sabotaging their employer on the way out.
  - jmyeet 2y ago
    It never ceases to amaze me how even the most inocuous online discourse, such as saying criminal misconduct isn't worth it just because you hate your job, nearly always somehow proves Godwin's Law. We're talking about someone who most likely had a shitty experience at a shitty company for a shitty boss. Most of us has been there. That's all we're talking about. "What if they're making Zyklon B?" They're not. "What if they're funding or otherwise enabling death squads in Myanmar?" They're not. And if they were, why were you (in this case) happy to work for them for 12 years up until you were demoted, knowing this?
hilux 2y ago
In non-union America. But not in many (most?) other countries.
tantalor 2y ago
> our employers have no obligations to us Except the money they are obligated to give you. For the work you do for the money. Which is paid.

ninetyninenine 2y ago

I’m not making any judgement on this particular event but your rigid way of thinking that because it’s a crime it’s wrong is, well, too rigid. If I was a citizen of North Korea and I assassinated the great leader technically speaking I just committed a crime too. You see the nuance here? Maybe you think because the laws are American and Americans can do no wrong. Extraordinary rendition was completely legal and a thousand times worse than what this guy did. 10 years for this, 0 years for torture. I want to hear his side of the story. How did they fuck him over after he gave them years of work.

setnone 2y ago
I'm not judging either but what's the opposite of too rigid?
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  You don’t want to be the opposite either. Too loose means too forgiving nothing is wrong.
jmyeet 2y ago
And what evil was Eaton Corporation performing? No, seriously. Put your hyperbolic examples aside that clearly don't fit the facts. And let's say the company was evil in some way. Well, the defendant was happy to keep working for them (12 years in this case) and only started sabotating when he was demoted. So there's not a shred of a moral stand here. It's just pure self-interest, which is fine. But if you go the route of sabotage, don't be surprised if you end up jail. Is that worth it? The answer is no. I'm reminded of a really old Simpsons quote [1]. Alternatively, you just hoard information and make yourself impossible to fire. This article is non-specific about the charge but this article [2] says the charge carries a maximum 10 year sentence, which means it's a felony. So for the rest of his life, he'll be a convicted felon regardless of how much (if any) prison time he gets. That has consequences. It's also strange he went to trial at all. The conviction rate in Federal court is roughly 99%. Most Federal criminal cases plead out. I'd love to know what, if any, plea deal was offered, if he represented himself (pro se) and, if he didn't, how much it cost him. It has to be tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. You see what I mean when I say, it's just not worth it? "What if it was a moral crusade?" you might ask. It wasn't. That's the point. That's why it's not worth it. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtxUiGYrB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtxUiGYrB0 [2]: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/former-eaton-corp-employee-found-guilty-of-sabotaging-company-s-computer-systems/ar-AA1Au8eF https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/former-eaton-corp-...

BurningFrog 2y ago

> I've never understood this mentality. ... This is comitting a crime. Some percentage of the population is criminals. Of various levels. Most are not the completely ruthless kind, but some are. They're all around us, and we need to factor that in to our decisions.

vivzkestrel 2y ago

lets write a book "law for programmers" if ...condition....then crime and fill the entire book with if else conditions like this