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Or alternatively, someone else with homophobic feelings will use my comment to reflect and realize it's OK to acknowledge their feelings while acknowledging the

by ty6853 2y ago

Or alternatively, someone else with homophobic feelings will use my comment to reflect and realize it's OK to acknowledge their feelings while acknowledging the rights and freedoms of others. I welcome gays the freedom to kiss in public, just as they must accept my freedom to discuss my feelings. It's a two sided coin, and I'm not sure it's a loaded coin as you imply.

slg 2y ago
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- theoreticalmal 2y ago
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  - slg 2y ago
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    - ty6853 2y ago
      Tolerance means little if it's about stuff that you have nothing but good or neutral opinions and feelings about. The virtue of tolerance is accepting that which gives you unpleasant opinions or feelings. This is the kind of tolerance that actually takes meaningful effort to develop. You're limiting tolerance to a form where it has little to no value.
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
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        throw10920 2y ago
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        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
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        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        dang 2y ago
        Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        I do not believe that is the case, but since I cannot see most of this thread I cannot even review it.
        dang 2y ago
        You should be able to see the entire thread if you turn 'showdead' on in your profile. The only posts that don't show up that way are ones which their author deleted. However, your comments have been breaking the site guidelines regardless of what else is in the threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43298307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43298307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43298121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43298121 I know it always feels like the other person started it and did worse (and indeed, many of the comments you were replying to were bad ones that got deservedly flagged), but we need you* to follow the guidelines regardless of what anyone else is doing. Any other approach just invokes a downward spiral (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=downward%20spiral%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). * I don't just mean you, of course, but everyone who is posting to HN.
        account42 2y ago
        [flagged]
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
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        deleted 2y ago
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    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Every time I see this link people act as if it is a solved problem. It is called a paradox for a reason. It also presupposes that intolerance always outcompetes tolerance in the marketplace of ideas, which I strongly disagree with. The problem intolerance of intolerance actually tries to solve is one of purity. A pure society is the only way to avoid risking discomfort
    - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
      The paradox of tolerance is not a law of physics. It doesn't automatically win you the argument because it was always merely some dude's opinion. Moreover, given that the public mood has turned decidedly anti-progressive, it's really, really a bad idea to bring up the paradox of tolerance because they might just adopt it and decide you're the intolerant ones that don't have to be tolerated.
      - throw10920 2y ago
        > it's really, really a bad idea to bring up the paradox of tolerance because they might just adopt it and decide you're the intolerant ones that don't have to be tolerated. If the use of a meta-position like this is contingent on a particular set of people being in charge and using it, that means that it wasn't a good meta-position to begin with. Either you believe that we shouldn't tolerate "intolerant" people (and accept that being turned against you when you're not in power), or you don't. Only believing in it (or supporting it) when you have the power to enforce it on your political opponents is hypocritical and deeply evil.
        ThrowawayR2 2y ago
        Yes, agreed. I've made that same point to progressives who quoted the paradox of tolerance many times but it fell on deaf ears. Perhaps they'll listen now.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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wkat4242 2y ago
It's because you're berating their identity. It's similar to sharing your feelings when you're offended by a black person walking on the street. We don't tolerate people complaining about that. Why would the LGBT community be treated differently?
- ty6853 2y ago
  First of all, I entirely reject your premise. Second of all, I want to really zero in on "we don't tolerate." I want to know who we is, and how they plan on stopping me from expressing my feelings. Because last I checked we even tolerate nazis in the town square in this country, because the alternative is even worse.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    How is it different? People being gay or trans is just like people being black or white. They are born that way. We just give them the tools and trust so they don't have to hide it. Having them hide it doesn't make them not gay. And it doesn't matter because there's nothing bad about that anyway. And how the non toleration works? Well through law. Discrimination and racism are a crime. Even though the white house is full of white supremacists now. And male chauvinists too. Even white women get the short end of the stick. They're already unwelcome in the military (trump fired the female head of the coast guard and the black chief of staff)
    - ty6853 2y ago
      I think you're imagining a caricature of someone who gets a negative feeling from seeing homoerotic activity. Whatever it is, you're talking about someone else. I get a negative feeling, but I have no explanation for it nor any desire to stop gay people from being gay or black people from walking. By all means, kiss whoever you like for all to see. Good luck on you law, because it will only be struck. You're going to need a constitutional amendment.
      - wkat4242 2y ago

by ty6853 2y ago

slg 2y ago

[flagged]

theoreticalmal 2y ago
[flagged]
- slg 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - ty6853 2y ago
    Tolerance means little if it's about stuff that you have nothing but good or neutral opinions and feelings about. The virtue of tolerance is accepting that which gives you unpleasant opinions or feelings. This is the kind of tolerance that actually takes meaningful effort to develop. You're limiting tolerance to a form where it has little to no value.
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - throw10920 2y ago
        [flagged]
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        dang 2y ago
        Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        I do not believe that is the case, but since I cannot see most of this thread I cannot even review it.
        dang 2y ago
        You should be able to see the entire thread if you turn 'showdead' on in your profile. The only posts that don't show up that way are ones which their author deleted. However, your comments have been breaking the site guidelines regardless of what else is in the threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43343860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43298307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43298307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43298121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43298121 I know it always feels like the other person started it and did worse (and indeed, many of the comments you were replying to were bad ones that got deservedly flagged), but we need you* to follow the guidelines regardless of what anyone else is doing. Any other approach just invokes a downward spiral (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=downward%20spiral%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). * I don't just mean you, of course, but everyone who is posting to HN.
      - account42 2y ago
        [flagged]
        HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
        [flagged]
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Every time I see this link people act as if it is a solved problem. It is called a paradox for a reason. It also presupposes that intolerance always outcompetes tolerance in the marketplace of ideas, which I strongly disagree with. The problem intolerance of intolerance actually tries to solve is one of purity. A pure society is the only way to avoid risking discomfort
  - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    The paradox of tolerance is not a law of physics. It doesn't automatically win you the argument because it was always merely some dude's opinion. Moreover, given that the public mood has turned decidedly anti-progressive, it's really, really a bad idea to bring up the paradox of tolerance because they might just adopt it and decide you're the intolerant ones that don't have to be tolerated.
    - throw10920 2y ago
      > it's really, really a bad idea to bring up the paradox of tolerance because they might just adopt it and decide you're the intolerant ones that don't have to be tolerated. If the use of a meta-position like this is contingent on a particular set of people being in charge and using it, that means that it wasn't a good meta-position to begin with. Either you believe that we shouldn't tolerate "intolerant" people (and accept that being turned against you when you're not in power), or you don't. Only believing in it (or supporting it) when you have the power to enforce it on your political opponents is hypocritical and deeply evil.
      - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
        Yes, agreed. I've made that same point to progressives who quoted the paradox of tolerance many times but it fell on deaf ears. Perhaps they'll listen now.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  [flagged]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

wkat4242 2y ago

It's because you're berating their identity. It's similar to sharing your feelings when you're offended by a black person walking on the street. We don't tolerate people complaining about that. Why would the LGBT community be treated differently?

ty6853 2y ago
First of all, I entirely reject your premise. Second of all, I want to really zero in on "we don't tolerate." I want to know who we is, and how they plan on stopping me from expressing my feelings. Because last I checked we even tolerate nazis in the town square in this country, because the alternative is even worse.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  How is it different? People being gay or trans is just like people being black or white. They are born that way. We just give them the tools and trust so they don't have to hide it. Having them hide it doesn't make them not gay. And it doesn't matter because there's nothing bad about that anyway. And how the non toleration works? Well through law. Discrimination and racism are a crime. Even though the white house is full of white supremacists now. And male chauvinists too. Even white women get the short end of the stick. They're already unwelcome in the military (trump fired the female head of the coast guard and the black chief of staff)
  - ty6853 2y ago
    I think you're imagining a caricature of someone who gets a negative feeling from seeing homoerotic activity. Whatever it is, you're talking about someone else. I get a negative feeling, but I have no explanation for it nor any desire to stop gay people from being gay or black people from walking. By all means, kiss whoever you like for all to see. Good luck on you law, because it will only be struck. You're going to need a constitutional amendment.
    - wkat4242 2y ago