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I find it remarkable that despite the massive improvements to CSS and JS in the last 15-ish years, additions to HTML are glacial. I mean we only just got popove

I find it remarkable that despite the massive improvements to CSS and JS in the last 15-ish years, additions to HTML are glacial. I mean we only just got popovers for christ's sake. It's like JS and CSS are fully on board with being an app platform and HTML is digging its heels in insisting that everything be a document. There is maybe something to be said for that argument, but if I'm gonna have to interact with web apps I'd rather the list of stuff every developer needs to hand-roll in varying-quality JS be a lot smaller than it currently is.

bunderbunder 2y ago
I think that the root of the problem here is that, just like the acronym says, HTML really is, at its core, just a markup language for writing hypertext documents. Using it as a domain specific language for user interface layout is a horrible kludge that only continues to exist because natural selection doesn't give a damn about sensible design.
- AlienRobot 2y ago
  Absolutely. What's mindboggling to me is that when HTML5 came out people were swearing Flash (and Java applets) would be obsolete. Years later the replacement has been the most horrid spaghetti imaginable because no matter what framework or engine you use, it's going to become HTML+JS! They should just start supporting Java in the browser again. Java. Javascript. Nobody is even going to notice.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    I always thought it would be neat if python had been used instead of JavaScript. I have written web apps in c++ (wt framework) and it’s really neat to be able to leverage c/c++ libs we already had, which was what tipped the scales in choosing it. No it’s not the bees knees, but I can be productive, and new folks can jump on board and also be productive, very quickly.
    - AlienRobot 2y ago
      I love python, but I don't think Python is the solution to Javascript. I mean, Python is much better than Javascript, but Python's type hints are much worse than Typescript. A modern language needs to be something like Java, but with null types.
      - int_19h 2y ago
        What actually needs to happen is for wasm to get good enough that everything else is just implemented on top of it. Not that it'll save us from the flame wars over which language is better to compile to wasm, but at least you could actually pick your poison then...
  - BeFlatXIII 2y ago
    > Java. Java-Script. What's the difference? I can't find the Wayback Machine address, but I was going to link to one of the redacted Jerkcity comics where "Johnny from Arkansas" asks the exact question and Rands is happy to help the "American Taliban." Its title was something like "Clean the Dead Moose out of Panel 1"
- vacuity 2y ago
  I think it's good that HTML serves a narrow purpose. What's problematic is that we want every other purpose to be served by just one or two things (CSS, JS). It shouldn't be a struggle to differentiate between "script that makes buttons work" and "script that browses cat videos and downloads them to your hard drive". We can call it "minJS" and "maxJS" or something, and make it so users can disable "maxJS" without disabling "minJS". Or wait, why even mandate JS at that point? The biggest problem with the Web is not particular design decisions (although of course they have many problems), but the fact that we won't change them fundamentally and instead just keep piling things on.
mpalmer 2y ago
My sense is that JS and CSS have an easier time with building gracefully degraded experiences than HTML might. On top of that, changes to HTML either have to be isolated (no accompanying changes to JS in the browser), or they have to be coordinated with the updates to JS.

bunderbunder 2y ago

I think that the root of the problem here is that, just like the acronym says, HTML really is, at its core, just a markup language for writing hypertext documents. Using it as a domain specific language for user interface layout is a horrible kludge that only continues to exist because natural selection doesn't give a damn about sensible design.

AlienRobot 2y ago
Absolutely. What's mindboggling to me is that when HTML5 came out people were swearing Flash (and Java applets) would be obsolete. Years later the replacement has been the most horrid spaghetti imaginable because no matter what framework or engine you use, it's going to become HTML+JS! They should just start supporting Java in the browser again. Java. Javascript. Nobody is even going to notice.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  I always thought it would be neat if python had been used instead of JavaScript. I have written web apps in c++ (wt framework) and it’s really neat to be able to leverage c/c++ libs we already had, which was what tipped the scales in choosing it. No it’s not the bees knees, but I can be productive, and new folks can jump on board and also be productive, very quickly.
  - AlienRobot 2y ago
    I love python, but I don't think Python is the solution to Javascript. I mean, Python is much better than Javascript, but Python's type hints are much worse than Typescript. A modern language needs to be something like Java, but with null types.
    - int_19h 2y ago
      What actually needs to happen is for wasm to get good enough that everything else is just implemented on top of it. Not that it'll save us from the flame wars over which language is better to compile to wasm, but at least you could actually pick your poison then...
- BeFlatXIII 2y ago
  > Java. Java-Script. What's the difference? I can't find the Wayback Machine address, but I was going to link to one of the redacted Jerkcity comics where "Johnny from Arkansas" asks the exact question and Rands is happy to help the "American Taliban." Its title was something like "Clean the Dead Moose out of Panel 1"
vacuity 2y ago
I think it's good that HTML serves a narrow purpose. What's problematic is that we want every other purpose to be served by just one or two things (CSS, JS). It shouldn't be a struggle to differentiate between "script that makes buttons work" and "script that browses cat videos and downloads them to your hard drive". We can call it "minJS" and "maxJS" or something, and make it so users can disable "maxJS" without disabling "minJS". Or wait, why even mandate JS at that point? The biggest problem with the Web is not particular design decisions (although of course they have many problems), but the fact that we won't change them fundamentally and instead just keep piling things on.

mpalmer 2y ago

My sense is that JS and CSS have an easier time with building gracefully degraded experiences than HTML might. On top of that, changes to HTML either have to be isolated (no accompanying changes to JS in the browser), or they have to be coordinated with the updates to JS.