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You are likely aware of the English language's feature of multiple adjectives (that are modifying the same noun) needing to appear in a certain order to sound "

You are likely aware of the English language's feature of multiple adjectives (that are modifying the same noun) needing to appear in a certain order to sound "correct". So for example "yellow big balloon" sounds wrong but "big yellow balloon" sounds right. This is because SIZE is supposed to come before COLOR in standard English phrases. In this case, "robotic" and "private" could be similar enough in category to be confusing. In the Order of Adjectives[0], "robotic" is in the TYPE category, near the bottom of the list, and "private" seems to fit in that same category at first glance. By that interpretation, either "robotic private" or "private robotic" works. What if instead of "private" it said "Californian"? That would make it an ORIGIN, and "Californian robotic spacecraft" becomes the obvious choice — otherwise, you'd think they were talking about a spacecraft belonging to robots from California. ;) So if we interpret "private" as an ORIGIN, your "private robotic spacecraft" sounds better. That would have been my choice as well. [0]: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adj...

rrr_oh_man 2y ago
Upvoted, but just wanted to say it explicitly: What an in-depth and thoughtful answer. Thank you for this!
- kulahan 2y ago
  Comments like these are literally why I come to HN honestly. It’s such a wonderful community here.
  - ForOldHack 2y ago
    They are especially flavorful recently.
- bloomingeek 2y ago
  Having been raised in the states, I was a little shocked when I purchased a small book on English grammar. It explained a lot of tenses and proper arraignments of sentences I never knew. [which is clear from the things I just wrote. :)]
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    I found them learning another language (Spanish) gave me tools and categorizations for English that I didn't have and never applied before--at least not on a conscious level.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
contingencies 2y ago
A rational reference, but there are no hard and fast rules. Perhaps more importantly, in well written English superfluous words are removed - thus 'private robotic spacecraft' becomes 'private spacecraft', since all spacecraft are by definition at least partly autonomous.
- alwa 2y ago
  In the domain of moon spacecraft particularly, doesn’t there remain a clear distinction to be drawn between manned and unmanned spacecraft, given the power of the “man on the moon” trope in English-speakers’ imagination? “Private spacecraft tips over on moon” would mean something rather different if a modern-day Neil Armstrong were inside at the time. If anything, the fact that it’s just a machine matters more to me than who paid for it.
  - contingencies 2y ago
    Manned or unmanned could indeed be more relevant adjectives than 'robotic'. Except that, as is well known to all here, the era of manned lunar exploration is well and truly over.
725686 2y ago
I am not a native English speaker (or English native speaker, ;)), but I've been using it forever...but didn't know there was an official adjective ordering.
- marssaxman 2y ago
  I don't think most native English speakers know that, either. I only learned about it by hearing people explain it as an aspect of English to non-native speakers; it was not something anyone taught me in school, it's not something I've ever heard anyone mention in the context of proofreading or writing advice, and I couldn't actually tell you how it works - though I'm sure I must be using it instinctively.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    It's strangely intuitive, unlike English spelling. People going around getting it right all the time without even knowing it. Not unique to English, either: Wikipedia has examples in Tagalog where the order is almost the same (apart from a clause inserted in the middle of the second sequence). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_grammar#Sequence_of_modifiers_in_a_noun_phrase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_grammar#Sequence_of_mo...
  - smithkl42 2y ago
    "I first tried to write a story when I was about seven. It was about a dragon. I remember nothing about it except a philological fact. My mother said nothing about the dragon, but pointed out that one could not say “A green great dragon,” but had to say “a great green dragon.” I wondered why, and still do." - J. R. R. Tolkien
    - gerdesj 2y ago
      Vocal language is not a solved problem and hopefully never will be. I think it is important that we all maintain our respective languages. Let them flow and change and never fetter them. Co-opt words, phrases and more as you like but cherish your roots. Mr T invented an "Elvish" script and language and I think he also did so for Dwarves too. I'm pretty sure he was a prof at Oxbridge with a focus in languages, mostly English. Most English native speakers never notice adjective order as being a thing. It is a thing and I suspect Prof Tolkien learned that dimension comes first and colour second. I don't know why we insist on this but it is pretty deep!
colejohnson66 2y ago
“Private” isn’t describing the spacecraft per se, but the ownership of the spacecraft. “Privately-owned robotic spacecraft” is the “full” phrase, of which we elide part of the adjective.[0] Here, “privately-owned” is ORIGIN in that list, which puts it before TYPE. [0] “Privately owned”, while on its own an adverb and verb, is functioning as a singular adjective in the larger phrase. Edit: Previously said “funded”, not “owned”
- dakr 2y ago
  The spacecraft is privately owned, as the company is private, but I don't know that I would say that it is privately funded. NASA paid tens of millions of dollars, not just for delivering a payload (paying for a product/service), but for development of the lunar hopper, Grace, which was an award/grant.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
dhosek 2y ago
Indeed, this doubled potential meaning of private means that “private robotic spacecraft” is one that is privately-owned, but “robotic private spacecraft” means that there’s something private about the spacecraft, like it’s naked or on antidepressants or maybe it just doesn’t like talking to the press.
ndr42 2y ago
In other languages (e.g. German) you can "fine-tune" the order and hierarchy of the attributes with a comma. private, robotic spacecraft (with comma) -> private and robotic are attributes to spacecraft, the order could be changed but as in english you have an order that is more likely used private robotic spacecraft (without comma) -> the attribute private refers to a robotic spacecraft If you would like to emphasize that this is a private (and not public) robotic spacecraft you would use the version without comma.
- gausswho 2y ago
  That's fascinating and makes me ponder my interactions (in English) with Germans. I believe even though this trait does not feel proper in written English, it's somewhat common in spoken English, if you interpret the comma as a stulting of rhythym and tone.
- havelhovel 2y ago
  It’s the same in English. There was supposed to be a comma between both words because they’re coordinate adjectives.
somewhereoutth 2y ago
Furthermore, (and not really applicable in this case), you can bring an adjective to the front out of order for emphasis - so yellow big car would mean there were plenty of big cars, but the yellow one in particular. In spoken English there would be heavy vocal emphasis on yellow, and in written yellow would likely be italicized, just to make double sure.
hermitcrab 2y ago
>So for example "yellow big balloon" sounds wrong but "big yellow balloon" sounds right. I'm a native English speaker and wasn't even aware of this adjective ordering rule, until I read about it recently. I had internalised it, but wasn't consciously aware of it. I feel so sorry for anyone trying to learn English as a foreign language!

rrr_oh_man 2y ago

Upvoted, but just wanted to say it explicitly: What an in-depth and thoughtful answer. Thank you for this!

kulahan 2y ago
Comments like these are literally why I come to HN honestly. It’s such a wonderful community here.
- ForOldHack 2y ago
  They are especially flavorful recently.
bloomingeek 2y ago
Having been raised in the states, I was a little shocked when I purchased a small book on English grammar. It explained a lot of tenses and proper arraignments of sentences I never knew. [which is clear from the things I just wrote. :)]
- Terr_ 2y ago
  I found them learning another language (Spanish) gave me tools and categorizations for English that I didn't have and never applied before--at least not on a conscious level.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

contingencies 2y ago

A rational reference, but there are no hard and fast rules. Perhaps more importantly, in well written English superfluous words are removed - thus 'private robotic spacecraft' becomes 'private spacecraft', since all spacecraft are by definition at least partly autonomous.

alwa 2y ago
In the domain of moon spacecraft particularly, doesn’t there remain a clear distinction to be drawn between manned and unmanned spacecraft, given the power of the “man on the moon” trope in English-speakers’ imagination? “Private spacecraft tips over on moon” would mean something rather different if a modern-day Neil Armstrong were inside at the time. If anything, the fact that it’s just a machine matters more to me than who paid for it.
- contingencies 2y ago
  Manned or unmanned could indeed be more relevant adjectives than 'robotic'. Except that, as is well known to all here, the era of manned lunar exploration is well and truly over.

725686 2y ago

I am not a native English speaker (or English native speaker, ;)), but I've been using it forever...but didn't know there was an official adjective ordering.

marssaxman 2y ago
I don't think most native English speakers know that, either. I only learned about it by hearing people explain it as an aspect of English to non-native speakers; it was not something anyone taught me in school, it's not something I've ever heard anyone mention in the context of proofreading or writing advice, and I couldn't actually tell you how it works - though I'm sure I must be using it instinctively.
- card_zero 2y ago
  It's strangely intuitive, unlike English spelling. People going around getting it right all the time without even knowing it. Not unique to English, either: Wikipedia has examples in Tagalog where the order is almost the same (apart from a clause inserted in the middle of the second sequence). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_grammar#Sequence_of_modifiers_in_a_noun_phrase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_grammar#Sequence_of_mo...
- smithkl42 2y ago
  "I first tried to write a story when I was about seven. It was about a dragon. I remember nothing about it except a philological fact. My mother said nothing about the dragon, but pointed out that one could not say “A green great dragon,” but had to say “a great green dragon.” I wondered why, and still do." - J. R. R. Tolkien
  - gerdesj 2y ago
    Vocal language is not a solved problem and hopefully never will be. I think it is important that we all maintain our respective languages. Let them flow and change and never fetter them. Co-opt words, phrases and more as you like but cherish your roots. Mr T invented an "Elvish" script and language and I think he also did so for Dwarves too. I'm pretty sure he was a prof at Oxbridge with a focus in languages, mostly English. Most English native speakers never notice adjective order as being a thing. It is a thing and I suspect Prof Tolkien learned that dimension comes first and colour second. I don't know why we insist on this but it is pretty deep!

colejohnson66 2y ago

“Private” isn’t describing the spacecraft per se, but the ownership of the spacecraft. “Privately-owned robotic spacecraft” is the “full” phrase, of which we elide part of the adjective.[0] Here, “privately-owned” is ORIGIN in that list, which puts it before TYPE. [0] “Privately owned”, while on its own an adverb and verb, is functioning as a singular adjective in the larger phrase. Edit: Previously said “funded”, not “owned”

dakr 2y ago
The spacecraft is privately owned, as the company is private, but I don't know that I would say that it is privately funded. NASA paid tens of millions of dollars, not just for delivering a payload (paying for a product/service), but for development of the lunar hopper, Grace, which was an award/grant.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

dhosek 2y ago

Indeed, this doubled potential meaning of private means that “private robotic spacecraft” is one that is privately-owned, but “robotic private spacecraft” means that there’s something private about the spacecraft, like it’s naked or on antidepressants or maybe it just doesn’t like talking to the press.

ndr42 2y ago

In other languages (e.g. German) you can "fine-tune" the order and hierarchy of the attributes with a comma. private, robotic spacecraft (with comma) -> private and robotic are attributes to spacecraft, the order could be changed but as in english you have an order that is more likely used private robotic spacecraft (without comma) -> the attribute private refers to a robotic spacecraft If you would like to emphasize that this is a private (and not public) robotic spacecraft you would use the version without comma.

gausswho 2y ago
That's fascinating and makes me ponder my interactions (in English) with Germans. I believe even though this trait does not feel proper in written English, it's somewhat common in spoken English, if you interpret the comma as a stulting of rhythym and tone.
havelhovel 2y ago
It’s the same in English. There was supposed to be a comma between both words because they’re coordinate adjectives.

somewhereoutth 2y ago

Furthermore, (and not really applicable in this case), you can bring an adjective to the front out of order for emphasis - so yellow big car would mean there were plenty of big cars, but the yellow one in particular. In spoken English there would be heavy vocal emphasis on yellow, and in written yellow would likely be italicized, just to make double sure.

hermitcrab 2y ago

>So for example "yellow big balloon" sounds wrong but "big yellow balloon" sounds right. I'm a native English speaker and wasn't even aware of this adjective ordering rule, until I read about it recently. I had internalised it, but wasn't consciously aware of it. I feel so sorry for anyone trying to learn English as a foreign language!