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<tangent>Not a native English speaker here, my focus stopped at the subtitle "Robotic private spacecraft touched down about 250 miles from its intended landing

<tangent>Not a native English speaker here, my focus stopped at the subtitle "Robotic private spacecraft touched down about 250 miles from its intended landing site on Thursday". It feels odd to read "robotic private spacecraft" instead of "private robotic spacecraft" but I can't explain why.</tangent>

jchw 2y ago
I agree, as a native speaker. It's a known phenomena[1], though I'm not sure in this case what type of adjective you'd classify "private" as. [1]: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adj...
- rrr_oh_man 2y ago
  Nit: Phenomena is plural. The singular form is phenomenon. (Other similar words with a Greek root: lexicon/lexica, criterion/criteria, automaton/automata)
  - jchw 2y ago
    Hah. While I am a native speaker, I am still American. (Thanks. I was aware of this, but I still mess it up from time to time. Same for media/medium, though not nearly as much anymore.)
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    -on, plural -a, is just the ordinary second declension neuter nominative/accusative ending. It's about as common as a linguistic phenomenon can be. Etymologically, you'd expect it to apply to the physics particles named for qualities, like photon, but I don't think that's ever done.
- mhink 2y ago
  I'll grant that it definitely sounds ambiguous, but I actually think the phrasing "robotic private spacecraft" is more correct in the end. I think this is a fair analogy: suppose we were talking about a "private detective". If we were writing a sci-fi book, we might talk about a "robotic private detective", but "private robotic detective" would sound odd. Now, I'll grant that "private detective" has a lot more cultural weight than "private spacecraft", but I think it's fair to say that at least the word "private" is playing a nearly identical role in both phrases. With that in mind, I think "robotic private spacecraft" makes sense. I suppose you could take this argument one step further and resolve the ambiguity by asking which distinction (robotic/non-robotic, private/public) the article writer thinks is more notable and placing that first.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    Yeah, private detective is an open compound: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_(linguistics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_(linguistics) At least I think that's the right term (I hunted around for one that fits). So, is private spacecraft also a compound? Is it idiomatic? Maybe. Another example is little black dress, where "my new little black dress" sounds right and "my little new black dress" seems to refer to a different kind of garment.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- fuzztester 2y ago
  >I agree, as a native speaker. It's a known phenomena[1] phenomenon is the singular, phenomena is the plural, dear native speaker ;) google: phenomenon vs phenomena or: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/learner-english/phenomenon https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/learner-english/...
card_zero 2y ago
There is such a thing as adjective order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective#Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective#Order Arguably "private" is origin and "robotic" is purpose.
LeoPanthera 2y ago
The order of adjectives in English is usually: opinion, size, age or shape, colour, origin, material, purpose It is sometimes difficult to classify adjectives this way, but "private" is probably opinion and "robotic" is probably purpose, so you are correct, "private robotic spacecraft" is probably correct. The problem with English, of course, is that you can figure out what someone means, even if they jumble all their words up, most of the time. I wonder if the standard of English composition has been reducing in journalism, over the past few years.
- bombcar 2y ago
  Private large old round blue American metallic robotic spaceship. Sounds a bit wrong, I want to put American first.
  - asah 2y ago
    That's your American opinion !! :-)
  - adriand 2y ago
    > Sounds a bit wrong, I want to put American first. That would require labelling the spacecraft transgender, then cutting its budget.
  - bawolff 2y ago
    Otoh, if you cut out some - "old american spaceship" sounds fine to me, where "american old spaceship" does not (or it makes it sound like "american old" is a brand name)
    - bombcar 2y ago
      Part of it might be that the age is changing, but the "American" isn't. I don't know. It's weird that there's obviously some kind of ruleset here, but it's difficult to nail it down.
- QuercusMax 2y ago
  I think private is an origin, not an opinion.
celsius1414 2y ago
You are likely aware of the English language's feature of multiple adjectives (that are modifying the same noun) needing to appear in a certain order to sound "correct". So for example "yellow big balloon" sounds wrong but "big yellow balloon" sounds right. This is because SIZE is supposed to come before COLOR in standard English phrases. In this case, "robotic" and "private" could be similar enough in category to be confusing. In the Order of Adjectives[0], "robotic" is in the TYPE category, near the bottom of the list, and "private" seems to fit in that same category at first glance. By that interpretation, either "robotic private" or "private robotic" works. What if instead of "private" it said "Californian"? That would make it an ORIGIN, and "Californian robotic spacecraft" becomes the obvious choice — otherwise, you'd think they were talking about a spacecraft belonging to robots from California. ;) So if we interpret "private" as an ORIGIN, your "private robotic spacecraft" sounds better. That would have been my choice as well. [0]: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adj...
- rrr_oh_man 2y ago
  Upvoted, but just wanted to say it explicitly: What an in-depth and thoughtful answer. Thank you for this!
  - kulahan 2y ago
    Comments like these are literally why I come to HN honestly. It’s such a wonderful community here.
    - ForOldHack 2y ago
      They are especially flavorful recently.
  - bloomingeek 2y ago
    Having been raised in the states, I was a little shocked when I purchased a small book on English grammar. It explained a lot of tenses and proper arraignments of sentences I never knew. [which is clear from the things I just wrote. :)]
jamesy0ung 2y ago
I'm a native English speaker and I think it's weird as well.
jimnotgym 2y ago
Is it even a private mission when, like most space stuff, Nasa is paying. How about 'outsourced robotic moon-litter'
8xeh 2y ago
The article uses "robotic mobile probes," which also seems out of order. I (native english speaker) would order it as "mobile robotic probes". But if I were writing it, I'd say "robotic probe", "surface probe", or "mobile probe". In this case, robotic and mobile mean the same thing, so using both is redundant. And although I would order it as "private robotic spacecraft", I don't think that's correct. The spacecraft is robotic, but it's not private. It might be privately-operated, privately-owned, or privately-funded (each has a slightly different connotation). But private by itself means that a private company is somehow responsible for the mission. So if I were writing it, I'd use something like "privately-funded robotic spacecraft" or "robotic spacecraft operated by private company XYZ".
inamberclad 2y ago
Meters, not miles :)
aqueueaqueue 2y ago
They should just call it a robotic spacecraft, and then mention private company elsewhere in the sentence if they must.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

jchw 2y ago

I agree, as a native speaker. It's a known phenomena[1], though I'm not sure in this case what type of adjective you'd classify "private" as. [1]: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adj...

rrr_oh_man 2y ago
Nit: Phenomena is plural. The singular form is phenomenon. (Other similar words with a Greek root: lexicon/lexica, criterion/criteria, automaton/automata)
- jchw 2y ago
  Hah. While I am a native speaker, I am still American. (Thanks. I was aware of this, but I still mess it up from time to time. Same for media/medium, though not nearly as much anymore.)
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  -on, plural -a, is just the ordinary second declension neuter nominative/accusative ending. It's about as common as a linguistic phenomenon can be. Etymologically, you'd expect it to apply to the physics particles named for qualities, like photon, but I don't think that's ever done.
mhink 2y ago
I'll grant that it definitely sounds ambiguous, but I actually think the phrasing "robotic private spacecraft" is more correct in the end. I think this is a fair analogy: suppose we were talking about a "private detective". If we were writing a sci-fi book, we might talk about a "robotic private detective", but "private robotic detective" would sound odd. Now, I'll grant that "private detective" has a lot more cultural weight than "private spacecraft", but I think it's fair to say that at least the word "private" is playing a nearly identical role in both phrases. With that in mind, I think "robotic private spacecraft" makes sense. I suppose you could take this argument one step further and resolve the ambiguity by asking which distinction (robotic/non-robotic, private/public) the article writer thinks is more notable and placing that first.
- card_zero 2y ago
  Yeah, private detective is an open compound: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_(linguistics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_(linguistics) At least I think that's the right term (I hunted around for one that fits). So, is private spacecraft also a compound? Is it idiomatic? Maybe. Another example is little black dress, where "my new little black dress" sounds right and "my little new black dress" seems to refer to a different kind of garment.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
fuzztester 2y ago
>I agree, as a native speaker. It's a known phenomena[1] phenomenon is the singular, phenomena is the plural, dear native speaker ;) google: phenomenon vs phenomena or: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/learner-english/phenomenon https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/learner-english/...

card_zero 2y ago

There is such a thing as adjective order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective#Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective#Order Arguably "private" is origin and "robotic" is purpose.

LeoPanthera 2y ago

The order of adjectives in English is usually: opinion, size, age or shape, colour, origin, material, purpose It is sometimes difficult to classify adjectives this way, but "private" is probably opinion and "robotic" is probably purpose, so you are correct, "private robotic spacecraft" is probably correct. The problem with English, of course, is that you can figure out what someone means, even if they jumble all their words up, most of the time. I wonder if the standard of English composition has been reducing in journalism, over the past few years.

bombcar 2y ago
Private large old round blue American metallic robotic spaceship. Sounds a bit wrong, I want to put American first.
- asah 2y ago
  That's your American opinion !! :-)
- adriand 2y ago
  > Sounds a bit wrong, I want to put American first. That would require labelling the spacecraft transgender, then cutting its budget.
- bawolff 2y ago
  Otoh, if you cut out some - "old american spaceship" sounds fine to me, where "american old spaceship" does not (or it makes it sound like "american old" is a brand name)
  - bombcar 2y ago
    Part of it might be that the age is changing, but the "American" isn't. I don't know. It's weird that there's obviously some kind of ruleset here, but it's difficult to nail it down.
QuercusMax 2y ago
I think private is an origin, not an opinion.

celsius1414 2y ago

You are likely aware of the English language's feature of multiple adjectives (that are modifying the same noun) needing to appear in a certain order to sound "correct". So for example "yellow big balloon" sounds wrong but "big yellow balloon" sounds right. This is because SIZE is supposed to come before COLOR in standard English phrases. In this case, "robotic" and "private" could be similar enough in category to be confusing. In the Order of Adjectives[0], "robotic" is in the TYPE category, near the bottom of the list, and "private" seems to fit in that same category at first glance. By that interpretation, either "robotic private" or "private robotic" works. What if instead of "private" it said "Californian"? That would make it an ORIGIN, and "Californian robotic spacecraft" becomes the obvious choice — otherwise, you'd think they were talking about a spacecraft belonging to robots from California. ;) So if we interpret "private" as an ORIGIN, your "private robotic spacecraft" sounds better. That would have been my choice as well. [0]: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adj...

rrr_oh_man 2y ago
Upvoted, but just wanted to say it explicitly: What an in-depth and thoughtful answer. Thank you for this!
- kulahan 2y ago
  Comments like these are literally why I come to HN honestly. It’s such a wonderful community here.
  - ForOldHack 2y ago
    They are especially flavorful recently.
- bloomingeek 2y ago
  Having been raised in the states, I was a little shocked when I purchased a small book on English grammar. It explained a lot of tenses and proper arraignments of sentences I never knew. [which is clear from the things I just wrote. :)]

jamesy0ung 2y ago

I'm a native English speaker and I think it's weird as well.

jimnotgym 2y ago

Is it even a private mission when, like most space stuff, Nasa is paying. How about 'outsourced robotic moon-litter'

8xeh 2y ago

The article uses "robotic mobile probes," which also seems out of order. I (native english speaker) would order it as "mobile robotic probes". But if I were writing it, I'd say "robotic probe", "surface probe", or "mobile probe". In this case, robotic and mobile mean the same thing, so using both is redundant. And although I would order it as "private robotic spacecraft", I don't think that's correct. The spacecraft is robotic, but it's not private. It might be privately-operated, privately-owned, or privately-funded (each has a slightly different connotation). But private by itself means that a private company is somehow responsible for the mission. So if I were writing it, I'd use something like "privately-funded robotic spacecraft" or "robotic spacecraft operated by private company XYZ".

inamberclad 2y ago

Meters, not miles :)

aqueueaqueue 2y ago

They should just call it a robotic spacecraft, and then mention private company elsewhere in the sentence if they must.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]