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We can all see that Europe _could_ have done much more for itself and Ukraine - we see that - but chose not to, despite American requests for over a decade.

by yyyk 2y ago

drumhead 2y ago
In Europe the UK were the only nation to take the Russian threat seriously, they trained and armed the Ukrainians as best they could. France was trying diplomatic means to persuede Russia to curtail it hostilities. Germany just ignored them because cheap natural gas for their industry. Post invasion though they've given significant amounts of aid, but it was rather later than they should have.
- yyyk 2y ago
  >France was trying diplomatic means to persuede Russia to curtail it hostilities. There were two years between these diplomatic efforts and now. What happened in the meantime? It's obvious EU could have invested more in defence. How come they get outcompeted by _North Korean_ defence industry? Another thing - it's actually very easy to help Ukraine and punch Putin. Just place EU troops in Western Ukraine, to free up Ukrainians for the war. Putin will find out he has to agree to security guarantees otherwise he'll get literal troops in his face. EU statesmen are pressuring US for guarantees they are unwilling to give themselves, when they ought to do it for their own interests. I think Trump is very very crass to say the least, but you also need to look at underlying realities, and EU behaviour has been poor.
  - drumhead 2y ago
    The EU didnt take the threat seriously because they couldnt comprehend Putin jeapordising trade relationships with the rest of Europe. Putin in turn thought that Europe would roll over like they did with Crimea, they'd also be scared to lose access to Russian gas. Both sides were wrong. Putin was stupider than the EU realised and Russian gas was not as indispensible as he though it was.
wat10000 2y ago
We can also see that a decent chunk of Europe went into Afghanistan with us, and even some into Iraq, when they could have easily stayed home. It's not just the military. For example, a common argument I see for why the US can't have proper universal health care when so much of Europe manages to do it is that Europe is (supposedly) free-riding off of US medical R&D. I'd also wager that a large part of this group doesn't think anyone should be helping Ukraine.
- yyyk 2y ago
  >We can also see that a decent chunk of Europe went into Afghanistan with us There's a difference between big EU countries (which have been skimping), and the small E. European countries which are more realistic about defence. Note Ukraine itself did a lot here. >a common argument I see for why the US can't have proper universal health care when so much of Europe manages to do it is that Europe is (supposedly) free-riding off of US medical R&D. US actually spends more. The trick is seeing where this expenditure goes ('greedy CEOs' is technically accurate, but not the biggest reason).

We can all see that Europe _could_ have done much more for itself and Ukraine - we see that - but chose not to, despite American requests for over a decade.

by yyyk 2y ago

We can all see that Europe _could_ have done much more for itself and Ukraine - we see that - but chose not to, despite American requests for over a decade.

drumhead 2y ago

In Europe the UK were the only nation to take the Russian threat seriously, they trained and armed the Ukrainians as best they could. France was trying diplomatic means to persuede Russia to curtail it hostilities. Germany just ignored them because cheap natural gas for their industry. Post invasion though they've given significant amounts of aid, but it was rather later than they should have.

yyyk 2y ago
>France was trying diplomatic means to persuede Russia to curtail it hostilities. There were two years between these diplomatic efforts and now. What happened in the meantime? It's obvious EU could have invested more in defence. How come they get outcompeted by _North Korean_ defence industry? Another thing - it's actually very easy to help Ukraine and punch Putin. Just place EU troops in Western Ukraine, to free up Ukrainians for the war. Putin will find out he has to agree to security guarantees otherwise he'll get literal troops in his face. EU statesmen are pressuring US for guarantees they are unwilling to give themselves, when they ought to do it for their own interests. I think Trump is very very crass to say the least, but you also need to look at underlying realities, and EU behaviour has been poor.
- drumhead 2y ago
  The EU didnt take the threat seriously because they couldnt comprehend Putin jeapordising trade relationships with the rest of Europe. Putin in turn thought that Europe would roll over like they did with Crimea, they'd also be scared to lose access to Russian gas. Both sides were wrong. Putin was stupider than the EU realised and Russian gas was not as indispensible as he though it was.

wat10000 2y ago

We can also see that a decent chunk of Europe went into Afghanistan with us, and even some into Iraq, when they could have easily stayed home. It's not just the military. For example, a common argument I see for why the US can't have proper universal health care when so much of Europe manages to do it is that Europe is (supposedly) free-riding off of US medical R&D. I'd also wager that a large part of this group doesn't think anyone should be helping Ukraine.

yyyk 2y ago
>We can also see that a decent chunk of Europe went into Afghanistan with us There's a difference between big EU countries (which have been skimping), and the small E. European countries which are more realistic about defence. Note Ukraine itself did a lot here. >a common argument I see for why the US can't have proper universal health care when so much of Europe manages to do it is that Europe is (supposedly) free-riding off of US medical R&D. US actually spends more. The trick is seeing where this expenditure goes ('greedy CEOs' is technically accurate, but not the biggest reason).