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Property didn't just appear in your hands out of thin air. Unless maybe you appeared naked on a deserted island and made everything yourself from scratch. It's

Property didn't just appear in your hands out of thin air. Unless maybe you appeared naked on a deserted island and made everything yourself from scratch. It's only "your" property because of the social structures that make it so. If you want to know what Nussbaum has to say about it, you should probably read them yourself.

richardanaya 2y ago
You sound like an authoritarian eager to take someone's property.
- Nevermark 2y ago
  You sound like someone who appreciates the costly systems that protect their property, but finds those “collective” efforts inconvenient to acknowledge. “Property” is most definitely a social aspect of reality. It does not water down its usefulness, or moral rationale, to recognize that any view of property beyond “things you can physically defend without help from others” involves social agreements and efforts. I don’t think dismissing others good points out of hand is the best way to communicate your own ideas. Human beings benefit so much from social agreements it is profound. This is not news to game theorists, but some people seem to find it to be a bitter instead of sweet pill. The question for the animal which creates exponentially more value for itself via many and varied social constructs, than any other animal, is to optimize positive sum social structures (in form and depth), and avoid and mitigate negative sums. Not deny their obvious existence or that our own existence (and freedom) as individuals and a species would be significantly curbed without them.
  - richardanaya 2y ago
    I do appreciate property and property rights (which I fund to be defended by my taxes). They are my only material means (aside from my bare hands) for achieving my values for myself and people I love. If you have "collective efforts" you want funded or built, you're free to ask people voluntarily to put their lives, children, families etc. on hold for whatever cause you think is important that I don't see that you have insight into. There's nothing stopping you.
    - sprucevoid 2y ago
      > If you have "collective efforts" you want funded or built, you're free to ask people voluntarily to put their lives, children, families etc. on hold for whatever cause you think is important that I don't see that you have insight into. Such collective efforts are already underway. One is called the United States, a system where the legal construct property is bounded and compatible with taxation for public provision. The US is a club of people who have banded together for common goals and with democracy as a tool for updating the system. If you don't want to be part of that club then leave.
      - theplague42 2y ago
        Libertarians and mentally speed-running the invention of the nation-state: an iconic duo.
      - richardanaya 2y ago
        America was founded on respecting individual pursuit of life and protection of property. It's also not a democracy, it's a republic.
        amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        It's a democratic Republic. We elect representative to make decisions for us, rather than meeting each day en masse to make decisions.
        Nevermark 2y ago
        I don’t think you will find any disagreement on either point. “Democracy” is often used as a general term for governments that in some sense are a delegation of citizen power. Even though a pure democracy would remove the delegation. As a practical matter, the US model has devolved into a party-duocracy. Power at all levels has nearly completely centralized at the national level of each majority party. Of which there are only two. The extreme minimum of choice even for a Republic.
        sprucevoid 2y ago
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  There is certainly an emotional reaction that happens when something you consider yours is lost. We have all felt it at some point. But consider: everything you have was either stolen from somebody else at some point in the past, or created from resources that were stolen from somebody else, probably before you were born.

richardanaya 2y ago

You sound like an authoritarian eager to take someone's property.

Nevermark 2y ago
You sound like someone who appreciates the costly systems that protect their property, but finds those “collective” efforts inconvenient to acknowledge. “Property” is most definitely a social aspect of reality. It does not water down its usefulness, or moral rationale, to recognize that any view of property beyond “things you can physically defend without help from others” involves social agreements and efforts. I don’t think dismissing others good points out of hand is the best way to communicate your own ideas. Human beings benefit so much from social agreements it is profound. This is not news to game theorists, but some people seem to find it to be a bitter instead of sweet pill. The question for the animal which creates exponentially more value for itself via many and varied social constructs, than any other animal, is to optimize positive sum social structures (in form and depth), and avoid and mitigate negative sums. Not deny their obvious existence or that our own existence (and freedom) as individuals and a species would be significantly curbed without them.
- richardanaya 2y ago
  I do appreciate property and property rights (which I fund to be defended by my taxes). They are my only material means (aside from my bare hands) for achieving my values for myself and people I love. If you have "collective efforts" you want funded or built, you're free to ask people voluntarily to put their lives, children, families etc. on hold for whatever cause you think is important that I don't see that you have insight into. There's nothing stopping you.
  - sprucevoid 2y ago
    > If you have "collective efforts" you want funded or built, you're free to ask people voluntarily to put their lives, children, families etc. on hold for whatever cause you think is important that I don't see that you have insight into. Such collective efforts are already underway. One is called the United States, a system where the legal construct property is bounded and compatible with taxation for public provision. The US is a club of people who have banded together for common goals and with democracy as a tool for updating the system. If you don't want to be part of that club then leave.
    - theplague42 2y ago
      Libertarians and mentally speed-running the invention of the nation-state: an iconic duo.
    - richardanaya 2y ago
      America was founded on respecting individual pursuit of life and protection of property. It's also not a democracy, it's a republic.
      - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        It's a democratic Republic. We elect representative to make decisions for us, rather than meeting each day en masse to make decisions.
      - Nevermark 2y ago
        I don’t think you will find any disagreement on either point. “Democracy” is often used as a general term for governments that in some sense are a delegation of citizen power. Even though a pure democracy would remove the delegation. As a practical matter, the US model has devolved into a party-duocracy. Power at all levels has nearly completely centralized at the national level of each majority party. Of which there are only two. The extreme minimum of choice even for a Republic.
      - sprucevoid 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
amanaplanacanal 2y ago
There is certainly an emotional reaction that happens when something you consider yours is lost. We have all felt it at some point. But consider: everything you have was either stolen from somebody else at some point in the past, or created from resources that were stolen from somebody else, probably before you were born.