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The agreement was essentially "You promise to give us 50% of the proceeds of any new mines you open. We promise you absolutely nothing, but maybe we'll try and

by mapt 2y ago

The agreement was essentially "You promise to give us 50% of the proceeds of any new mines you open. We promise you absolutely nothing, but maybe we'll try and negotiate a ceasefire." This was revealed to be the formal agreement precisely 1 hour before the planned meeting. Russian state media were invited into the Oval Office for the meeting. Then Trump set about lying to Zelensky's face about how Zelensky started this war, about how much aid had been granted, and about other things. He appeared to be attempting to ritualistically humiliate Zelensky and Ukraine, demanding that he kowtow and suggesting that Ukraine owed Trump half a trillion dollars. Zelensky was very upfront about needing security guarantees from the US and a permanent brokered peace to sign anything, not just the idea of seeking a ceasefire. He didn't get that far. Because he refused to cry on camera and essentially offer an unconditional surrender to Trump, he was driven out of the White House. Trump then proceeded to comment about how this was all a set up, that he needed to illustrate to the world how terribly ungrateful Ukraine was, that "That's why I kept this going so long".

ty6853 2y ago
If US offered nothing I suppose there is no sense of loss then. What are people upset about if Ukraine lost nothing? Do you think some mining rights are a fair trade for 'security guarentees' of us going to war with Russia? I think Zelensky is way overplaying his hand. I'm not sending our kids to die in defense of Ukraine because of a 3rd party to the deal.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  The US' whole negotiating position was, "I don't like the status quo so you need to offer more." Sure, you can say that there was an offer to keep the status quo, but it's hard to argue that this isn't a betrayal. Nothing changed diplomatically between the nations before the US decided that Ukraine doesn't deserve their help anymore.
  - ty6853 2y ago
    It was Russia who betrayed Ukraine. Not giving more aid, there is a reasonable argument is not betrayal. It's more if a movement from temporary charity to negotiations on a sustainable resolution. Getting Zelensky to take the ego blow needed to end the war is going to be painful, because there is no easy way out.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      It was also the US who betrayed Ukraine. These events are not mutually exclusive. Refusing to continue aid for no reason other than the US realized they might be able to get more out of it, there is a reasonable argument is betrayal.
      - ty6853 2y ago
        I think your characterization shows the true desperation of the war fuel cries. It's betrayal, ww3, my children marched off to world war, my wife will be raped. I've heard it all. The viciousness against not funding conscripts going into the meat shredder makes me think the war mongers must be desperate their blood sacrifice (and the accompanying money train) is coming to an end.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
        > the war mongers Ah, I thought it was Russia who betrayed Ukraine, per your words yeah? But of course, my reading comprehension isn't that bad. You are genuinely trying to argue that the people decrying this betrayal are war mongers, intent on extending this war; never mind who actually instigated the war, there is no reason to call them war mongers. You don't help your argument when you call your opponents names, especially without any merit.
        ty6853 2y ago
        [flagged]
        2y ago
- mapt 2y ago
  Ukraine began the day expecting Trump to seriously attempt a settlement of the conflict by signing an agreement; Security guarantees were discussed before the agreement was formulated. 1 hour before, they learned they had nothing to gain because there were no security guarantees, and that they would need to establish formal changes to the agreement during the meeting. During the meeting, they learned that politely asking for formal changes to the agreement would trigger performative anger, denial, and insults. That Trump would get self-righteous about his extortion attempt, and that it wasn't "Your money or or life!", but "Your money, now!"

by mapt 2y ago

ty6853 2y ago

If US offered nothing I suppose there is no sense of loss then. What are people upset about if Ukraine lost nothing? Do you think some mining rights are a fair trade for 'security guarentees' of us going to war with Russia? I think Zelensky is way overplaying his hand. I'm not sending our kids to die in defense of Ukraine because of a 3rd party to the deal.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
The US' whole negotiating position was, "I don't like the status quo so you need to offer more." Sure, you can say that there was an offer to keep the status quo, but it's hard to argue that this isn't a betrayal. Nothing changed diplomatically between the nations before the US decided that Ukraine doesn't deserve their help anymore.
- ty6853 2y ago
  It was Russia who betrayed Ukraine. Not giving more aid, there is a reasonable argument is not betrayal. It's more if a movement from temporary charity to negotiations on a sustainable resolution. Getting Zelensky to take the ego blow needed to end the war is going to be painful, because there is no easy way out.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
    It was also the US who betrayed Ukraine. These events are not mutually exclusive. Refusing to continue aid for no reason other than the US realized they might be able to get more out of it, there is a reasonable argument is betrayal.
    - ty6853 2y ago
      I think your characterization shows the true desperation of the war fuel cries. It's betrayal, ww3, my children marched off to world war, my wife will be raped. I've heard it all. The viciousness against not funding conscripts going into the meat shredder makes me think the war mongers must be desperate their blood sacrifice (and the accompanying money train) is coming to an end.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
        > the war mongers Ah, I thought it was Russia who betrayed Ukraine, per your words yeah? But of course, my reading comprehension isn't that bad. You are genuinely trying to argue that the people decrying this betrayal are war mongers, intent on extending this war; never mind who actually instigated the war, there is no reason to call them war mongers. You don't help your argument when you call your opponents names, especially without any merit.
        ty6853 2y ago
        [flagged]
        2y ago
mapt 2y ago
Ukraine began the day expecting Trump to seriously attempt a settlement of the conflict by signing an agreement; Security guarantees were discussed before the agreement was formulated. 1 hour before, they learned they had nothing to gain because there were no security guarantees, and that they would need to establish formal changes to the agreement during the meeting. During the meeting, they learned that politely asking for formal changes to the agreement would trigger performative anger, denial, and insults. That Trump would get self-righteous about his extortion attempt, and that it wasn't "Your money or or life!", but "Your money, now!"