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Speaking as a European now. I give Ukraine money via taxes and occasional donations. Ukraine repays me many times over by their blood, sweat, and tears to keep

by Y-bar 2y ago

Speaking as a European now. I give Ukraine money via taxes and occasional donations. Ukraine repays me many times over by their blood, sweat, and tears to keep Europe free and democratic. This is an easy and cheap trade for me, and I could/should probably pay them even more for what they give in return.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
They're fighting to keeping themselves free. My country's and NATO's defense is what's keeping me free. Any additional assistance from my tax money to Ukraine (which I agree with) is entirely optional and should be repaid.
- diggan 2y ago
  Some people only see today, others look forward. When people say Ukraine is fighting for European democracy and freedom, it's about what happens after Ukraine if they fall.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    >Some people only see today, others look forward. When your bank balance is zero or negative and rent and bills are due, do you care about your own today or do you care about the tomorrow of another country hundreds/thousands of KM away? Because that's how most people think in private. Only the privileged with a warm home and a full stomach can afford to think about other countries. Everyone is rooting for Ukraine if you ask them, but not many are willing to sacrifice their own welfare for it.
- argsnd 2y ago
  They are fighting the only country that exists which poses a threat to Europe. If they defeat that country we all benefit.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    How will Ukraine defeat a nuclear power? Do you think Putin given his ego, after all he's put his country and reputation through, is just gonna walk back and admit defeat if you throw enough EU money and Ukrainian bodies at him? How naive can you be?
    - andrewflnr 2y ago
      Small animals can defeat large, powerful predators simply by being too prickly to bother with. Russia is almost certainly not going to deploy nukes over Ukraine. The cost/benefit is just not there: they won't help take or hold territory, and they invite strategic retaliation from more actors than just Ukraine. So. Putin's political position is not unassailable (remember how touch-and-go things were with Prigozhin? How hardly anyone stood up to him?). If holding Ukraine becomes genuinely untenable, he'll have to make some excuse to leave, or fall. It's even possible he'll die of old age or pneumonia and be replaced by a more reasonable psychopath.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Because we, no matter how arrogant, cannot predict the future. Putin could have a heart attack. He might be assassinated by an insider. The soldiers may even decide the war isn't worth fighting. Putin is not a God, he is a man. The circumstances of that are extremely unpredictable.
    - eru 2y ago
      > How will Ukraine defeat a nuclear power? See what Ukraine is doing right now, and add more weapons and money. They won't 'defeat' Russia in the sense of Ukrainian soldiers marching down Red Square in Moscow. But they will make Russia lose the war. > Do you think Putin given his ego, after all he's put his country and reputation through, is just gonna walk back and admit defeat if you throw enough EU money and Ukrainian bodies at him? If the alternative is being deposed at home, yes.
    - monkey_monkey 2y ago
      How did the Afghans humiliate the USSR?
- piva00 2y ago
  I think you do not understand the framework you are living under and keeping you free. After WW2 and the formation of the UN we got a new world order, the whole Pax Americana is based on this order where collectively the world decided that invasions and annexation of territory is something we should all band together to fight against. They're fighting to uphold this order, to show that it's not simply yet-another-treaty that a warring nation can break and take territory from another country with few consequences, where allying to countries doing that will be met with absolute resistance to hold to this ideal. That's what we are paying for in Europe, if that doesn't have any value to you and you prefer to see it as a purely transactional interaction then go ahead to hold this opinion, other people believe in something further than simply tit-for-tat transactions. Morally speaking is a better way of living.
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    I gather he understands fine, he just doesn't like it. He wants Russia to win.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      Why are you making baseless accusations in bad faith? Reductionist accusatory comments like yours similar to George Bush's infamous "if you're not with us then you're against us", are what makes honest discourse impossible. Just because I don't want my tax money going to aid another country's war any further, doesn't mean I want Russia to win. I want Ukraine to win, just not with my tax money, especially knowing how corrupt Ukraine is and how luxury car sales have boomed in Ukraine in 2023-2025, maybe they should look internally for war revenue instead. I'm already doing my part housing Ukrainian refugees in my country on my tax Euros, even though a lot of them are military aged males and come with cars worth more than I make in a year.
      - actionfromafar 2y ago
        If you really want to see Ukraine win, I'm actually sorry. I have two follow up questions. How much do you want Ukraine to win? Are you concerned more tax Euros may be spent if Russia wins?
- citrin_ru 2y ago
  Invokin NATO article 5 requiries an unanimous vote. There is a high risk that the US will vote against invoking 5 in case if Putin will invade a NATO member in Europe: 1. Trump is cozying up to Putin and hard to predict how far he would go. 2. Trump may times said that Europe's security is not his problem.
  - eru 2y ago
    > Invokin NATO article 5 requiries an unanimous vote. Where do you get that from? As far as I can tell, there's no voting at all involved. Formally, any member state can unilaterally invoke article 5.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- dismalaf 2y ago
  Trump literally refused to say the USA would intervene if Poland or Lithuania were invaded... He just said Poles are nice people and Lithuanians are in a tough spot.

by Y-bar 2y ago

FirmwareBurner 2y ago

They're fighting to keeping themselves free. My country's and NATO's defense is what's keeping me free. Any additional assistance from my tax money to Ukraine (which I agree with) is entirely optional and should be repaid.

diggan 2y ago
Some people only see today, others look forward. When people say Ukraine is fighting for European democracy and freedom, it's about what happens after Ukraine if they fall.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >Some people only see today, others look forward. When your bank balance is zero or negative and rent and bills are due, do you care about your own today or do you care about the tomorrow of another country hundreds/thousands of KM away? Because that's how most people think in private. Only the privileged with a warm home and a full stomach can afford to think about other countries. Everyone is rooting for Ukraine if you ask them, but not many are willing to sacrifice their own welfare for it.
argsnd 2y ago
They are fighting the only country that exists which poses a threat to Europe. If they defeat that country we all benefit.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  How will Ukraine defeat a nuclear power? Do you think Putin given his ego, after all he's put his country and reputation through, is just gonna walk back and admit defeat if you throw enough EU money and Ukrainian bodies at him? How naive can you be?
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    Small animals can defeat large, powerful predators simply by being too prickly to bother with. Russia is almost certainly not going to deploy nukes over Ukraine. The cost/benefit is just not there: they won't help take or hold territory, and they invite strategic retaliation from more actors than just Ukraine. So. Putin's political position is not unassailable (remember how touch-and-go things were with Prigozhin? How hardly anyone stood up to him?). If holding Ukraine becomes genuinely untenable, he'll have to make some excuse to leave, or fall. It's even possible he'll die of old age or pneumonia and be replaced by a more reasonable psychopath.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Because we, no matter how arrogant, cannot predict the future. Putin could have a heart attack. He might be assassinated by an insider. The soldiers may even decide the war isn't worth fighting. Putin is not a God, he is a man. The circumstances of that are extremely unpredictable.
  - eru 2y ago
    > How will Ukraine defeat a nuclear power? See what Ukraine is doing right now, and add more weapons and money. They won't 'defeat' Russia in the sense of Ukrainian soldiers marching down Red Square in Moscow. But they will make Russia lose the war. > Do you think Putin given his ego, after all he's put his country and reputation through, is just gonna walk back and admit defeat if you throw enough EU money and Ukrainian bodies at him? If the alternative is being deposed at home, yes.
  - monkey_monkey 2y ago
    How did the Afghans humiliate the USSR?
piva00 2y ago
I think you do not understand the framework you are living under and keeping you free. After WW2 and the formation of the UN we got a new world order, the whole Pax Americana is based on this order where collectively the world decided that invasions and annexation of territory is something we should all band together to fight against. They're fighting to uphold this order, to show that it's not simply yet-another-treaty that a warring nation can break and take territory from another country with few consequences, where allying to countries doing that will be met with absolute resistance to hold to this ideal. That's what we are paying for in Europe, if that doesn't have any value to you and you prefer to see it as a purely transactional interaction then go ahead to hold this opinion, other people believe in something further than simply tit-for-tat transactions. Morally speaking is a better way of living.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  I gather he understands fine, he just doesn't like it. He wants Russia to win.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    Why are you making baseless accusations in bad faith? Reductionist accusatory comments like yours similar to George Bush's infamous "if you're not with us then you're against us", are what makes honest discourse impossible. Just because I don't want my tax money going to aid another country's war any further, doesn't mean I want Russia to win. I want Ukraine to win, just not with my tax money, especially knowing how corrupt Ukraine is and how luxury car sales have boomed in Ukraine in 2023-2025, maybe they should look internally for war revenue instead. I'm already doing my part housing Ukrainian refugees in my country on my tax Euros, even though a lot of them are military aged males and come with cars worth more than I make in a year.
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      If you really want to see Ukraine win, I'm actually sorry. I have two follow up questions. How much do you want Ukraine to win? Are you concerned more tax Euros may be spent if Russia wins?
citrin_ru 2y ago
Invokin NATO article 5 requiries an unanimous vote. There is a high risk that the US will vote against invoking 5 in case if Putin will invade a NATO member in Europe: 1. Trump is cozying up to Putin and hard to predict how far he would go. 2. Trump may times said that Europe's security is not his problem.
- eru 2y ago
  > Invokin NATO article 5 requiries an unanimous vote. Where do you get that from? As far as I can tell, there's no voting at all involved. Formally, any member state can unilaterally invoke article 5.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dismalaf 2y ago
Trump literally refused to say the USA would intervene if Poland or Lithuania were invaded... He just said Poles are nice people and Lithuanians are in a tough spot.