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Why does the dual clutch transmission repel you ? I am aware that a stick shift has better "feel", but if that is the comparison (as I am assuming due to you m

Why does the dual clutch transmission repel you ? I am aware that a stick shift has better "feel", but if that is the comparison (as I am assuming due to you mentioning the R34) a dual clutch is superior in every other way except weight. Sure, feel is very important, but refusing to even drive one ? Not judging, genuinely curious.

roflchoppa 2y ago
Yeah I was curious about this as well. I really like the DSG gearboxes that are used in the Golf, maybe the tech is/was older?
Aurornis 2y ago
Some people just like shifting manually. It's a preference thing. I agree that DCTs are great. Modern DCTs are amazing. I don't personally feel that DCTs take away from the driving experience at all. It does get tiresome when people become snobby about driving stickshift, though.
- j45 2y ago
  The DCT on the GT-R definitely wasn't as rough around the edges as I anticipated it might be.
numpad0 2y ago
Lately there's been a lot of fanboyism around manual transmission in online car communities. It's either just a pretend purism, or that "car" enthusiasts being mostly enthused with the power plant than the whole system.
- Eavolution 2y ago
  I'm not a car enthusiast, however having driven both manual and automatic cars I just find driving manual cars more fun, and I imagine a lot of enthusiasts do too. I feel more in control of the car, and getting good performance feels like it's taking skill, even in a slower car. I don't think I'd find anything satisfying about driving an automatic, but faster car, in the same way.
- roughly 2y ago
  I think it's something that's coming about because of the level of performance reached by the average sports car - in prior eras, the actual mechanical challenge of making a car fast meant achieving higher and higher peak performance also required more engagement from the driver, and I think a lot of people implicitly conflated the two. Starting in the 2000s (and this is really where it's interesting to see the perspective here on the R35, because I recall this being a critique of the car at the time), computer-controlled transmissions, AWD, engine tuning, etc. took a lot of that out of the drivers' hands in the service of making the cars just absolutely brutally fast. EVs are the apex of this - the acceleration is ridiculous, the "skateboard" with all the heavy batteries at the bottom does wonders for keeping the cars planted, and the performance these cars can reach is astounding, but... it's boring. So now I think more people are coming around to the idea that sports car driving is not a numbers game - who can be the fastest around the lap - but an actual visceral hobby, something to engage the senses, and in many cases that almost requires the car to not be as fast or as capable as what you can get with more tech in the middle.
  - anonym29 2y ago
    The R35 really was a bit of a pioneer in redefining "performance car" from some ultra-light RWD pocket rocket with white-knuckle, ****-puckering, hair-trigger inputs into some big heavy cruiser that your grandmother could comfortably drive around on a track, which is a similar philosophy to how Tesla led the EV revolution for perfomance enthusiasts and dethroned the ICE with the Plaid. Extensive computer-aided assistance and a higher weight, at the time the R35 came out, was bemoaned the same way car enthusiasts bemoan self-driving 9000lb EVs now. It was a bit ahead of it's time! I still remember the jokes about the R35 being the first performance car that came with "driver mod" from the factory :^)
- Braxton1980 2y ago
  Shifting manually is fun, that's it for me. It's like playing an arcade game while driving, it's more to do.
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  It’s not, having driven manuals and automatics around the Nordschleife, automatic feels so uneventful. With manual one is constantly involved. Even paddle shifting is boring.
- rconti 2y ago
  It's not a new thing, it's always been a popular choice in the enthusiast community. What's nice is finally the market is catching up with the manual (again). It used to be the performance choice. When the automatics/twin clutches got good in the 2000/2010 era, a lot of performance cars preferred the faster/easier transmission, and the people spending new-car money on performance cars opted for it (or were forced into it). As with many things, the new-car-money people aren't a cross section of the enthusiast community, they have different preferences. Some want the latest tech, some want their expensive purchase to be easy to drive every day, etc. But the used market has always valued the manual more highly than the new car market, and the lower-and-lower take rate of the manual in new cars means the values of the manual are stronger than ever. However, I can't remember a time when an automatic or twin clutch pulled more $ on the used market.
- alienthrowaway 2y ago
  God forbid someone just enjoys engaging more of their body in the act of driving. What's next, pillorying retro-computing enthusiasts and accusing them of arrested development because no one legitimately enjoys old & slow computers?
xnyan 2y ago
The shifts can be slightly rougher than a traditional clutch, and there have been some notable DCTs quite prone to failure.
- OptionOfT 2y ago
  How rough they are is dependent on programming. The Getrag DCT I had in my BMW was amazing and beat the ZF-8 on crispiness, speed, and weight. Where the ZF-8 wins is stop & go traffic. The DCT will do its very best to minimize slip, where the ZF-8 just doesn't lock up the lock-up clutch. But once you're moving the DCT was butter smooth, with selectable engagement speed.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    Oh man, how do I tell if this is why I think my Lexus needs transmission work? At speed I don't even notice the transmission, but even 15% throttle off the line its like its missing shifts or something! My Ford did this and it was a bad coilpack every time, but I have no other issues like that. I'll have to see if mine is DCT?
    - genewitch 2y ago
      My car does not have DCT. so it just has a wack transmission!
- anonym29 2y ago
  As long as you're stock or just doing some bolt ons and an E85/FF tune, the DCT is fine. If you're doing big power upgades, you will need to throw in a shep trans kit or something else, but you're gonna need forged con rods before that - you'll bend rods on a stock motor before you'll break the stock DCT. It's also butter smooth compared to contemporary peer DCTs, like the getrag box that was thrown in the Ferrari 458 and AMG GT, though I personally prefer the feel of being kicked back into your seat at full throttle + highway speeds from the getrag box. It's fun, but not quite as punishing as a hard launch in a Model S Plaid, which feels more like the car is trying to relocate your kidneys to about 3 feet behind you. The one exception to the smoothness of Nissan's DCT is slow right hand turns in 1st or 2nd. It seems to not want to upshift as quickly as you'd think it ought to in that situation more often than I would've preferred. But that's more of a minor QoL thing than a real problem, IMO. A much bigger problem with the R35 is that if it ever gets towed without a flatbed (i.e. rear wheels on road), you grenade most of the drivetrain (including the DCT), and that's like $20k+ in parts before you even start counting labor.
bob1029 2y ago
I don't think anyone is arguing that the DCT isn't absolutely dominating from a technical excellence standpoint. I think the argument is that the better "feel" is far more important than these engineering figures.
aoanevdus 2y ago
Assuming you’re driving a sports car for fun and not to win a race - isn’t feel the whole point?
kllrnohj 2y ago
well the dct in the r35 specifically is made of $20,000 glass that cannot handle factory power with factory launch modes and Nissan yanked warranty support after the fact. So that transmission specifically is definitely to be avoided.
- j45 2y ago
  I remember reading about that - Managing use of launch control on a Tesla, or any vehicle is probably a mindful risk. I do think there are some tuners that have beefed it up.
- 0x457 2y ago
  > factory launch modes There is no factory launch mode on R35. That a snow mode that was misused as launch control, that's why nissan yanked warranty.
- Grazester 2y ago
  Your information sounds like what was being said back in 2011, which is to say is misinformed.
  - kllrnohj 2y ago
    I'll let the person I was doing track days with back then know that his gt-r transmission was just misinformed, it didn't actually need the repair bill. Thanks!
    - Grazester 2y ago
      Oh it was a track day! That's all we need to know....so many other factors are at play here.
rconti 2y ago
Feel. I enjoy driving any form of automatic less. If it has a powerband (eg, not an EV), I want to be in control of that powerband, and I want to be physically shifting because I enjoy the tactile sensation. FWIW, I own an EV as well as a car (SUV) with a conventional auto. It's just not my _preference_, particularly in a performance car. Every paddle shift car I've driven (single clutch, dual clutch, conventional automatic), I just leave in auto mode. I don't find the paddles fun or engaging at all. I play with them for a few minutes, then let it do its automatic thing. I'm perplexed by people who use the paddles 95%+ of the time. If it's a superfluous action, I just stop doing it. (and then find myself annoyed it's in the wrong gear!) I didn't say I refused to drive the R35, I just wouldn't buy one. I'd enjoy the _hell_ out of driving one.
parliament32 2y ago
Apples to oranges. It's along the lines of "if you're trying to get around the track fast, why not just use a motorcycle? It's superior in every way." Technically, yes, you will put down faster times on a bike. But it's not the same thing. Likewise, stick shift vs autotragic is just not the same thing.
- 4gotunameagain 2y ago
  I think it is quite the leap to equate stick vs dct to car vs motorcycle.
- shric 2y ago
  > Technically, yes, you will put down faster times on a bike. Motorcycle track rider here. They're generally slower than performance cars around the track due to reduced cornering traction and therefore speed.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    As someone that had an Evo X, I concur. Motorcyclists used to pull up beside me after a mountain run and ask what it was. AWD with active Yaw control sticks to the road at nearly any speed, a motorcycle can only lean so far.
legitster 2y ago
> I am aware that a stick shift has better "feel", but if that is the comparison (as I am assuming due to you mentioning the R34) a dual clutch is superior in every other way except weight. This is kind of like saying an engineered protein smoothie is better in every way than a steak. Most of us are not driving around town doing time attacks. Driving "feel" is really the only thing that matters for enthusiasts.,
kfajdsl 2y ago
A DCT is superior in almost every situation except for when you just want to push a clutch in yourself. For a car that is primarily a toy, “fun” is a good enough reason to not consider a DCT. Obviously for lots of people getting the better performance is more fun, but I like driving manual and probably wouldn’t buying a consider a “fun” car without a stick shift.

roflchoppa 2y ago

Yeah I was curious about this as well. I really like the DSG gearboxes that are used in the Golf, maybe the tech is/was older?

Aurornis 2y ago

Some people just like shifting manually. It's a preference thing. I agree that DCTs are great. Modern DCTs are amazing. I don't personally feel that DCTs take away from the driving experience at all. It does get tiresome when people become snobby about driving stickshift, though.

j45 2y ago
The DCT on the GT-R definitely wasn't as rough around the edges as I anticipated it might be.

numpad0 2y ago

Lately there's been a lot of fanboyism around manual transmission in online car communities. It's either just a pretend purism, or that "car" enthusiasts being mostly enthused with the power plant than the whole system.

Eavolution 2y ago
I'm not a car enthusiast, however having driven both manual and automatic cars I just find driving manual cars more fun, and I imagine a lot of enthusiasts do too. I feel more in control of the car, and getting good performance feels like it's taking skill, even in a slower car. I don't think I'd find anything satisfying about driving an automatic, but faster car, in the same way.
roughly 2y ago
I think it's something that's coming about because of the level of performance reached by the average sports car - in prior eras, the actual mechanical challenge of making a car fast meant achieving higher and higher peak performance also required more engagement from the driver, and I think a lot of people implicitly conflated the two. Starting in the 2000s (and this is really where it's interesting to see the perspective here on the R35, because I recall this being a critique of the car at the time), computer-controlled transmissions, AWD, engine tuning, etc. took a lot of that out of the drivers' hands in the service of making the cars just absolutely brutally fast. EVs are the apex of this - the acceleration is ridiculous, the "skateboard" with all the heavy batteries at the bottom does wonders for keeping the cars planted, and the performance these cars can reach is astounding, but... it's boring. So now I think more people are coming around to the idea that sports car driving is not a numbers game - who can be the fastest around the lap - but an actual visceral hobby, something to engage the senses, and in many cases that almost requires the car to not be as fast or as capable as what you can get with more tech in the middle.
- anonym29 2y ago
  The R35 really was a bit of a pioneer in redefining "performance car" from some ultra-light RWD pocket rocket with white-knuckle, ****-puckering, hair-trigger inputs into some big heavy cruiser that your grandmother could comfortably drive around on a track, which is a similar philosophy to how Tesla led the EV revolution for perfomance enthusiasts and dethroned the ICE with the Plaid. Extensive computer-aided assistance and a higher weight, at the time the R35 came out, was bemoaned the same way car enthusiasts bemoan self-driving 9000lb EVs now. It was a bit ahead of it's time! I still remember the jokes about the R35 being the first performance car that came with "driver mod" from the factory :^)
Braxton1980 2y ago
Shifting manually is fun, that's it for me. It's like playing an arcade game while driving, it's more to do.
rad_gruchalski 2y ago
It’s not, having driven manuals and automatics around the Nordschleife, automatic feels so uneventful. With manual one is constantly involved. Even paddle shifting is boring.
rconti 2y ago
It's not a new thing, it's always been a popular choice in the enthusiast community. What's nice is finally the market is catching up with the manual (again). It used to be the performance choice. When the automatics/twin clutches got good in the 2000/2010 era, a lot of performance cars preferred the faster/easier transmission, and the people spending new-car money on performance cars opted for it (or were forced into it). As with many things, the new-car-money people aren't a cross section of the enthusiast community, they have different preferences. Some want the latest tech, some want their expensive purchase to be easy to drive every day, etc. But the used market has always valued the manual more highly than the new car market, and the lower-and-lower take rate of the manual in new cars means the values of the manual are stronger than ever. However, I can't remember a time when an automatic or twin clutch pulled more $ on the used market.
alienthrowaway 2y ago
God forbid someone just enjoys engaging more of their body in the act of driving. What's next, pillorying retro-computing enthusiasts and accusing them of arrested development because no one legitimately enjoys old & slow computers?

xnyan 2y ago

The shifts can be slightly rougher than a traditional clutch, and there have been some notable DCTs quite prone to failure.

OptionOfT 2y ago
How rough they are is dependent on programming. The Getrag DCT I had in my BMW was amazing and beat the ZF-8 on crispiness, speed, and weight. Where the ZF-8 wins is stop & go traffic. The DCT will do its very best to minimize slip, where the ZF-8 just doesn't lock up the lock-up clutch. But once you're moving the DCT was butter smooth, with selectable engagement speed.
- genewitch 2y ago
  Oh man, how do I tell if this is why I think my Lexus needs transmission work? At speed I don't even notice the transmission, but even 15% throttle off the line its like its missing shifts or something! My Ford did this and it was a bad coilpack every time, but I have no other issues like that. I'll have to see if mine is DCT?
  - genewitch 2y ago
    My car does not have DCT. so it just has a wack transmission!
anonym29 2y ago
As long as you're stock or just doing some bolt ons and an E85/FF tune, the DCT is fine. If you're doing big power upgades, you will need to throw in a shep trans kit or something else, but you're gonna need forged con rods before that - you'll bend rods on a stock motor before you'll break the stock DCT. It's also butter smooth compared to contemporary peer DCTs, like the getrag box that was thrown in the Ferrari 458 and AMG GT, though I personally prefer the feel of being kicked back into your seat at full throttle + highway speeds from the getrag box. It's fun, but not quite as punishing as a hard launch in a Model S Plaid, which feels more like the car is trying to relocate your kidneys to about 3 feet behind you. The one exception to the smoothness of Nissan's DCT is slow right hand turns in 1st or 2nd. It seems to not want to upshift as quickly as you'd think it ought to in that situation more often than I would've preferred. But that's more of a minor QoL thing than a real problem, IMO. A much bigger problem with the R35 is that if it ever gets towed without a flatbed (i.e. rear wheels on road), you grenade most of the drivetrain (including the DCT), and that's like $20k+ in parts before you even start counting labor.

bob1029 2y ago

I don't think anyone is arguing that the DCT isn't absolutely dominating from a technical excellence standpoint. I think the argument is that the better "feel" is far more important than these engineering figures.

aoanevdus 2y ago

Assuming you’re driving a sports car for fun and not to win a race - isn’t feel the whole point?

kllrnohj 2y ago

well the dct in the r35 specifically is made of $20,000 glass that cannot handle factory power with factory launch modes and Nissan yanked warranty support after the fact. So that transmission specifically is definitely to be avoided.

j45 2y ago
I remember reading about that - Managing use of launch control on a Tesla, or any vehicle is probably a mindful risk. I do think there are some tuners that have beefed it up.
0x457 2y ago
> factory launch modes There is no factory launch mode on R35. That a snow mode that was misused as launch control, that's why nissan yanked warranty.
Grazester 2y ago
Your information sounds like what was being said back in 2011, which is to say is misinformed.
- kllrnohj 2y ago
  I'll let the person I was doing track days with back then know that his gt-r transmission was just misinformed, it didn't actually need the repair bill. Thanks!
  - Grazester 2y ago
    Oh it was a track day! That's all we need to know....so many other factors are at play here.

rconti 2y ago

Feel. I enjoy driving any form of automatic less. If it has a powerband (eg, not an EV), I want to be in control of that powerband, and I want to be physically shifting because I enjoy the tactile sensation. FWIW, I own an EV as well as a car (SUV) with a conventional auto. It's just not my _preference_, particularly in a performance car. Every paddle shift car I've driven (single clutch, dual clutch, conventional automatic), I just leave in auto mode. I don't find the paddles fun or engaging at all. I play with them for a few minutes, then let it do its automatic thing. I'm perplexed by people who use the paddles 95%+ of the time. If it's a superfluous action, I just stop doing it. (and then find myself annoyed it's in the wrong gear!) I didn't say I refused to drive the R35, I just wouldn't buy one. I'd enjoy the _hell_ out of driving one.

parliament32 2y ago

Apples to oranges. It's along the lines of "if you're trying to get around the track fast, why not just use a motorcycle? It's superior in every way." Technically, yes, you will put down faster times on a bike. But it's not the same thing. Likewise, stick shift vs autotragic is just not the same thing.

4gotunameagain 2y ago
I think it is quite the leap to equate stick vs dct to car vs motorcycle.
shric 2y ago
> Technically, yes, you will put down faster times on a bike. Motorcycle track rider here. They're generally slower than performance cars around the track due to reduced cornering traction and therefore speed.
- genewitch 2y ago
  As someone that had an Evo X, I concur. Motorcyclists used to pull up beside me after a mountain run and ask what it was. AWD with active Yaw control sticks to the road at nearly any speed, a motorcycle can only lean so far.

legitster 2y ago

> I am aware that a stick shift has better "feel", but if that is the comparison (as I am assuming due to you mentioning the R34) a dual clutch is superior in every other way except weight. This is kind of like saying an engineered protein smoothie is better in every way than a steak. Most of us are not driving around town doing time attacks. Driving "feel" is really the only thing that matters for enthusiasts.,

kfajdsl 2y ago

A DCT is superior in almost every situation except for when you just want to push a clutch in yourself. For a car that is primarily a toy, “fun” is a good enough reason to not consider a DCT. Obviously for lots of people getting the better performance is more fun, but I like driving manual and probably wouldn’t buying a consider a “fun” car without a stick shift.