4 ms·

> And then instead of importing Teslas from the US we should be importing BYD and Greelys from China. There are strategic reasons why you may not want to help

> And then instead of importing Teslas from the US we should be importing BYD and Greelys from China. There are strategic reasons why you may not want to help increase the manufacturing base of a national "competitor": > Democratic countries’ economies are mainly set up as free market economies with redistribution, because this is what maximizes living standards in peacetime. In a free market economy, if a foreign country wants to sell you cheap cars, you let them do it, and you allocate your own productive resources to something more profitable instead. If China is willing to sell you brand-new electric vehicles for $10,000, why should you turn them down? Just make B2B SaaS and advertising platforms and chat apps, sell them for a high profit margin, and drive a Chinese car. > Except then a war comes, and suddenly you find that B2B SaaS and advertising platforms and chat apps aren’t very useful for defending your freedoms. Oops! The right time to worry about manufacturing would have been years before the war, except you weren’t able to anticipate and prepare for the future. Manufacturing doesn’t just support war — in a very real way, it’s a war in and of itself. * https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/manufacturing-is-a-war-now https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/manufacturing-is-a-war-now

bhouston 2y ago
> There are strategic reasons why you may not want to help increase the manufacturing base of a national "competitor" From what I can tell, the US is repositioning itself as a national "competitor" to Canada. Thus based on the article you linked, Canada should significant curtail its trade with the US and start to rely upon its own industries and that of its reliable allies (looking at Europe) for military and critical infrastructure. That said, trading non critical goods with China and other countries who have not taken an aggressive war posture with us makes sense as well. Say what you will about China and their spying, but they have not actually treated to remove our sovereignty as the current leader of the US has [1]. In fact, China hasn't done anything even close to that. [1] https://time.com/7214321/trump-canada-51st-state-fox-super-bowl-interview/ https://time.com/7214321/trump-canada-51st-state-fox-super-b...
jajko 2y ago
How many times has China threatened Canada with invasion, taking over whole country? And US? Something about infinity. You are right, but I suspect you didn't realize its in completely opposite way if I understood you correctly. China isn't enemy of most if not all western countries in a way that it doesn't feel the need to export their system elsewhere and feeling as superior uber race, unlike russia for example. China never threatened Europe, zero zilch 0 nothing, it just wants to do business with us. US on the other hand... Maybe China is enemy of the US (not really seeing it but mkay, your fight your problem), maybe it will become enemy of US with recent potus and his a-lickers actions, but rest of the world is stopping caring about US tantrums and US-first is only about US, which is what, 4% of global population? Those that attack are our enemies. Those that don't aren't, rest are details.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > How many times has China threatened Canada with invasion, taking over whole country? And US? Something about infinity. Speaking as a Canadian, China is no friend of Canada: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Michael_Spavor_and_Michael_Kovrig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Michael_Spavor_an... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_government_interference_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_government_interferenc...
  - jajko 2y ago
    I wasn't claiming they are saint, but almost if not every country in the world could have same wikipedia with US meddling. Or russian. That's the core of secret services work. Did they ever threatened to annex Canada? Sort of more important than some minor bribes or espionage IMHO.
  - bhouston 2y ago
    > Speaking as a Canadian, China is no friend of Canada: You need to put things in perspective here. I am no fan of China but we have to turn away from the US. US tariffs are expected to cut our GDP by 3% / $63B [1], enter us into a recession, and increase unemployment by 2% / 440K jobs [2]. [1] https://www.edwardjones.ca/ca-en/market-news-insights/stock-market-news/market-pulse/potential-tariff-impact https://www.edwardjones.ca/ca-en/market-news-insights/stock-... [2] https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/u-s-tariffs-on-canada-take-effect-what-is-the-state-of-play/ https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/u-s-tariffs-on-canada-take... These are serious economic effects. And if Trump stays focused on annexation, it is likely to get worse if he really does want to bring us to our knees.
surgical_fire 2y ago
Are you arguing that countries should be wary of relying on US manufacturing?
- rstuart4133 2y ago
  > Are you arguing that countries should be wary of relying on US manufacturing? How could it be otherwise? In international trade, what you want is a partner who lets both of you ground through comparative advantage. They make what they are good at, you make what you are good at, goods made in both countries get cheaper and so you both get stronger. The USA has in the blink of an eye gone a champion of free trade to a tariffed island. If the USA starts dumping and you protect your local industries with tariffs, the USA will retaliate with more tariffs. The trust needed for comparative advantage to work has gone. The only sane response to this is to walk away from the USA as a trade partner. The only reason you wouldn't do that is you think it might be a passing phase, or you're in the denial stage of grief. It's been less than 100 days so not much has changed yet. But as you can see from this thread, people are looking around, assessing their options. Maybe Canada investing in shipping so it can trade products with Europe or India makes more sense now. Both need the raw materials Canada produces. That will mean less trade are done in the US dollar, and it's unlikely it will remain as stable as it has been for instance (it's already bouncing around a lot), so maybe it makes sense to denominate everything is another currency. Euro's perhaps? If you think that's unlikely consider this: a long while ago Australia's major trading partners was the UK. Then the UK joined the EU, and now it does far most of it's business in the Asia pacific. These transitions do happen when they make economic sense.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    My question was mostly rhetorical and sort of a jab at GP, who was probably alluding to China - a country that, perhaps ironically, should be considered a stable trade partner. After all, China has been a nation of merchants from time immemorial. That said, what you describe does make a lot of sense. While a country should keep some level of local industries to avoid getting completely deindustrialized, it does make sense to look for new trade partners in situation such as this. Isolationism just doesn't work in this day and age. Advanced economies are very complex beasts, and international trade makes it possible. No one country can produce everything an advanced economy needs.

bhouston 2y ago

> There are strategic reasons why you may not want to help increase the manufacturing base of a national "competitor" From what I can tell, the US is repositioning itself as a national "competitor" to Canada. Thus based on the article you linked, Canada should significant curtail its trade with the US and start to rely upon its own industries and that of its reliable allies (looking at Europe) for military and critical infrastructure. That said, trading non critical goods with China and other countries who have not taken an aggressive war posture with us makes sense as well. Say what you will about China and their spying, but they have not actually treated to remove our sovereignty as the current leader of the US has [1]. In fact, China hasn't done anything even close to that. [1] https://time.com/7214321/trump-canada-51st-state-fox-super-bowl-interview/ https://time.com/7214321/trump-canada-51st-state-fox-super-b...

jajko 2y ago

How many times has China threatened Canada with invasion, taking over whole country? And US? Something about infinity. You are right, but I suspect you didn't realize its in completely opposite way if I understood you correctly. China isn't enemy of most if not all western countries in a way that it doesn't feel the need to export their system elsewhere and feeling as superior uber race, unlike russia for example. China never threatened Europe, zero zilch 0 nothing, it just wants to do business with us. US on the other hand... Maybe China is enemy of the US (not really seeing it but mkay, your fight your problem), maybe it will become enemy of US with recent potus and his a-lickers actions, but rest of the world is stopping caring about US tantrums and US-first is only about US, which is what, 4% of global population? Those that attack are our enemies. Those that don't aren't, rest are details.

throw0101d 2y ago
> How many times has China threatened Canada with invasion, taking over whole country? And US? Something about infinity. Speaking as a Canadian, China is no friend of Canada: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Michael_Spavor_and_Michael_Kovrig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Michael_Spavor_an... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_government_interference_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_government_interferenc...
- jajko 2y ago
  I wasn't claiming they are saint, but almost if not every country in the world could have same wikipedia with US meddling. Or russian. That's the core of secret services work. Did they ever threatened to annex Canada? Sort of more important than some minor bribes or espionage IMHO.
- bhouston 2y ago
  > Speaking as a Canadian, China is no friend of Canada: You need to put things in perspective here. I am no fan of China but we have to turn away from the US. US tariffs are expected to cut our GDP by 3% / $63B [1], enter us into a recession, and increase unemployment by 2% / 440K jobs [2]. [1] https://www.edwardjones.ca/ca-en/market-news-insights/stock-market-news/market-pulse/potential-tariff-impact https://www.edwardjones.ca/ca-en/market-news-insights/stock-... [2] https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/u-s-tariffs-on-canada-take-effect-what-is-the-state-of-play/ https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/u-s-tariffs-on-canada-take... These are serious economic effects. And if Trump stays focused on annexation, it is likely to get worse if he really does want to bring us to our knees.

surgical_fire 2y ago

Are you arguing that countries should be wary of relying on US manufacturing?

rstuart4133 2y ago
> Are you arguing that countries should be wary of relying on US manufacturing? How could it be otherwise? In international trade, what you want is a partner who lets both of you ground through comparative advantage. They make what they are good at, you make what you are good at, goods made in both countries get cheaper and so you both get stronger. The USA has in the blink of an eye gone a champion of free trade to a tariffed island. If the USA starts dumping and you protect your local industries with tariffs, the USA will retaliate with more tariffs. The trust needed for comparative advantage to work has gone. The only sane response to this is to walk away from the USA as a trade partner. The only reason you wouldn't do that is you think it might be a passing phase, or you're in the denial stage of grief. It's been less than 100 days so not much has changed yet. But as you can see from this thread, people are looking around, assessing their options. Maybe Canada investing in shipping so it can trade products with Europe or India makes more sense now. Both need the raw materials Canada produces. That will mean less trade are done in the US dollar, and it's unlikely it will remain as stable as it has been for instance (it's already bouncing around a lot), so maybe it makes sense to denominate everything is another currency. Euro's perhaps? If you think that's unlikely consider this: a long while ago Australia's major trading partners was the UK. Then the UK joined the EU, and now it does far most of it's business in the Asia pacific. These transitions do happen when they make economic sense.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  My question was mostly rhetorical and sort of a jab at GP, who was probably alluding to China - a country that, perhaps ironically, should be considered a stable trade partner. After all, China has been a nation of merchants from time immemorial. That said, what you describe does make a lot of sense. While a country should keep some level of local industries to avoid getting completely deindustrialized, it does make sense to look for new trade partners in situation such as this. Isolationism just doesn't work in this day and age. Advanced economies are very complex beasts, and international trade makes it possible. No one country can produce everything an advanced economy needs.