5 ms·

Windows is only free if your time has no value

by jordemort 2y ago

ohgr 2y ago
I take this to extremes. When I was contracting I wouldn’t do anything Microsoft unless I was paid by the hour.
- an_ko 2y ago
  I believe the post you're replying to is making a joke, referencing a classic complaint/meme that "Linux is only free if your time has no value".
  - skyyler 2y ago
    The thing that makes the joke funny is that it truly has reversed. Fedora KDE spin has been a less painful experience than Windows 11 in every way, for me.
    - vladvasiliu 2y ago
      Indeed, and so has dartos' point. Not even hardware support is a sure thing on windows any longer. And I'm not talking exotic things, just your random enterprise HP laptop.
      - p_ing 2y ago
        Are you saying HP is building laptops that ship with Windows that lack drivers provided by HP?
        lynndotpy 2y ago
        Judging by the state of bluetooth and compatibility with their own docks, that might literally be the case.
        vladvasiliu 2y ago
        I've had two issues, with two Elitebooks, one 845g8 (amd) and one 840g8 (intel). These are ~2020 models IIRC, which I had at the end of 2020 for the amd and early 2021 for the intel. They both shipped with Windows 10, which I didn't use for any length of time, since I daily drive Linux. I updated them both to the latest Windows 11 available at the time, with a fresh install, and installed all the drivers from HP. With the AMD, fresh out of the box, there was some issue with the backlight. The screen would be very dim, even while set all the way up. I initially thought there was some hardware issue, but booting into the BIOS burned my eyes, so the hardware was fine. I didn't really use it for any length, so don't know how that install fared otherwise. After the reinstall, the backlight worked as expected. But, for around half a year, the webcam wouldn't be detected. It suddenly started working after some update or other. This machine can also not sleep for any length of time under Windows. It will usually reboot by itself after a while, and Windows has no idea why (event log says "unexpected shutdown"). Less often, though, it will just get stuck when attempting to wake up (fans full tilt, screen off). The hardware was otherwise in good working condition, since everything worked under Linux since day 1. Yes, including sleep and audio. With the Intel, the backlight seemed fine initially. I also didn't spend much time with it as delivered and reinstalled it. First off, Windows didn't detect the touchpad, nor the trackpoint, nor the Wifi. I did have a mouse lying around which worked (fortunately I don't care for BT peripherals), but then would have had to jump through some hoops to convince it to not insist on connecting to some server. Fortunately, it was going to be domain-joined so it left me be. Then the fun started. With the HP usb-c dock, the external screen would usually not be recognized at 4k@60 unless I did a plug-unplug-replug at the right time. Sleep would also be unreliable, sometimes waking up to a blank screen and fans going full tilt, sometimes to a garbled image. The output thing has been fixed after a while by using the drivers from Intel's website, but Windows would helpfully update them every other day to the borked ones. In the end, the drivers supplied by Windows have caught up, but my other random Chinese dock still won't output 4k@60. Sleep also mostly works fine now. Never had any issue on Linux. The Chinese dock works fine on Linux, and also on Windows with the AMD laptop.
sph 2y ago
Worse, Windows is free if your attention has no value. Being bombarded with ads and spied upon is worse than wasting my time.
dartos 2y ago
I’ve paid many $1000s of dollars in my time to the Linux gods. Audio driver issues. Graphics driver issues. WiFi driver issues. but I still like Linux more than windows.
- sejje 2y ago
  I was paying for my education, though.
- lynndotpy 2y ago
  I'd like to offer a counter-narrative. It might just be luck, but across seven machines (excluding Pis, other SBCs, Macs, Androids), I've only ever had one WiFi issue and one sleep-mode issue with Linux. (Which easily clocks in at fewer problems than on Windows.) By my measure, Linux has saved $1000s of dollars of my time just in waiting for updates alone. (Not to mention the employment and community opportunities it made possible.)
  - mystifyingpoi 2y ago
    I share the same experience, but tbh, my almost every single laptop purchase was prefaced by hours or even days of searching the internet for other people's experience with Linux on a particular machine. Except the first one - and I got machine with broken ethernet, without having wifi at home. Have fun copying .deb packages over usb stick.
  - dartos 2y ago
    I bet you haven’t used arch over a long period of time, using nvidia cards, and doing music production. I’ve spent days fixing issues after updating my system. Linux is great, but it has many pain points, as does windows. I don’t really think either is strictly less finicky or painful than another as long as you’re willing to learn a bit. If you’re not willing to learn a bit, windows is definitely was. Linux will always be cooler though.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      I feel like if you want an easy, mostly tinker-free Linux experience, you don't use something like Arch. You just install Ubuntu or Debian -- after doing your research and buying hardware that is well-supported -- and don't mess with things.
dredmorbius 2y ago
For those not twigging the reference: <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski>. That said, well played.
peepee1982 2y ago
Between Windows, Linux, and macOS, I’ve probably been the most productive on Windows, even though it’s the least enjoyable for me and I wish I could use Linux exclusively for my work. Linux, on the other hand, has been the least productive. Part of the problem is that it encourages users to tinker, but it also tends to break more easily—whether from tinkering itself or updates that mess with settings or drivers. I’m not sure about the current state of support for multi-monitor setups with different pixel densities, but I remember struggling a lot with that in various desktop environments in the past.

Windows is only free if your time has no value

ohgr 2y ago

I take this to extremes. When I was contracting I wouldn’t do anything Microsoft unless I was paid by the hour.

an_ko 2y ago
I believe the post you're replying to is making a joke, referencing a classic complaint/meme that "Linux is only free if your time has no value".
- skyyler 2y ago
  The thing that makes the joke funny is that it truly has reversed. Fedora KDE spin has been a less painful experience than Windows 11 in every way, for me.
  - vladvasiliu 2y ago
    Indeed, and so has dartos' point. Not even hardware support is a sure thing on windows any longer. And I'm not talking exotic things, just your random enterprise HP laptop.
    - p_ing 2y ago
      Are you saying HP is building laptops that ship with Windows that lack drivers provided by HP?
      - lynndotpy 2y ago
        Judging by the state of bluetooth and compatibility with their own docks, that might literally be the case.
      - vladvasiliu 2y ago
        I've had two issues, with two Elitebooks, one 845g8 (amd) and one 840g8 (intel). These are ~2020 models IIRC, which I had at the end of 2020 for the amd and early 2021 for the intel. They both shipped with Windows 10, which I didn't use for any length of time, since I daily drive Linux. I updated them both to the latest Windows 11 available at the time, with a fresh install, and installed all the drivers from HP. With the AMD, fresh out of the box, there was some issue with the backlight. The screen would be very dim, even while set all the way up. I initially thought there was some hardware issue, but booting into the BIOS burned my eyes, so the hardware was fine. I didn't really use it for any length, so don't know how that install fared otherwise. After the reinstall, the backlight worked as expected. But, for around half a year, the webcam wouldn't be detected. It suddenly started working after some update or other. This machine can also not sleep for any length of time under Windows. It will usually reboot by itself after a while, and Windows has no idea why (event log says "unexpected shutdown"). Less often, though, it will just get stuck when attempting to wake up (fans full tilt, screen off). The hardware was otherwise in good working condition, since everything worked under Linux since day 1. Yes, including sleep and audio. With the Intel, the backlight seemed fine initially. I also didn't spend much time with it as delivered and reinstalled it. First off, Windows didn't detect the touchpad, nor the trackpoint, nor the Wifi. I did have a mouse lying around which worked (fortunately I don't care for BT peripherals), but then would have had to jump through some hoops to convince it to not insist on connecting to some server. Fortunately, it was going to be domain-joined so it left me be. Then the fun started. With the HP usb-c dock, the external screen would usually not be recognized at 4k@60 unless I did a plug-unplug-replug at the right time. Sleep would also be unreliable, sometimes waking up to a blank screen and fans going full tilt, sometimes to a garbled image. The output thing has been fixed after a while by using the drivers from Intel's website, but Windows would helpfully update them every other day to the borked ones. In the end, the drivers supplied by Windows have caught up, but my other random Chinese dock still won't output 4k@60. Sleep also mostly works fine now. Never had any issue on Linux. The Chinese dock works fine on Linux, and also on Windows with the AMD laptop.

sph 2y ago

Worse, Windows is free if your attention has no value. Being bombarded with ads and spied upon is worse than wasting my time.

dartos 2y ago

I’ve paid many $1000s of dollars in my time to the Linux gods. Audio driver issues. Graphics driver issues. WiFi driver issues. but I still like Linux more than windows.

sejje 2y ago
I was paying for my education, though.
lynndotpy 2y ago
I'd like to offer a counter-narrative. It might just be luck, but across seven machines (excluding Pis, other SBCs, Macs, Androids), I've only ever had one WiFi issue and one sleep-mode issue with Linux. (Which easily clocks in at fewer problems than on Windows.) By my measure, Linux has saved $1000s of dollars of my time just in waiting for updates alone. (Not to mention the employment and community opportunities it made possible.)
- mystifyingpoi 2y ago
  I share the same experience, but tbh, my almost every single laptop purchase was prefaced by hours or even days of searching the internet for other people's experience with Linux on a particular machine. Except the first one - and I got machine with broken ethernet, without having wifi at home. Have fun copying .deb packages over usb stick.
- dartos 2y ago
  I bet you haven’t used arch over a long period of time, using nvidia cards, and doing music production. I’ve spent days fixing issues after updating my system. Linux is great, but it has many pain points, as does windows. I don’t really think either is strictly less finicky or painful than another as long as you’re willing to learn a bit. If you’re not willing to learn a bit, windows is definitely was. Linux will always be cooler though.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    I feel like if you want an easy, mostly tinker-free Linux experience, you don't use something like Arch. You just install Ubuntu or Debian -- after doing your research and buying hardware that is well-supported -- and don't mess with things.

dredmorbius 2y ago

For those not twigging the reference: <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski>. That said, well played.

peepee1982 2y ago

Between Windows, Linux, and macOS, I’ve probably been the most productive on Windows, even though it’s the least enjoyable for me and I wish I could use Linux exclusively for my work. Linux, on the other hand, has been the least productive. Part of the problem is that it encourages users to tinker, but it also tends to break more easily—whether from tinkering itself or updates that mess with settings or drivers. I’m not sure about the current state of support for multi-monitor setups with different pixel densities, but I remember struggling a lot with that in various desktop environments in the past.