2 ms·

I've watched a pretty interesting video that highlighted not only the Chinese automakers and their explosive growth, but how quickly Volkswagen was pushed out,

I've watched a pretty interesting video that highlighted not only the Chinese automakers and their explosive growth, but how quickly Volkswagen was pushed out, their market share plummeting in China since 2020 or so. They also messed up with waiting for too long to revise the computers and electronics in their cars, firing up a 1000 people strong engineering company (or was it 3000?) to rebuild car software from the ground up, naturally causing a lot of issues. But, the ID cars are doing well, the ID 4 overtaking Tesla's model 3 in popularity. And I really like that bus they have now, it's super cute.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
> And I really like that bus they have now, it's super cute. At ~60k a pop who can spend that on a small bus? Maybe rich Californians. VW forgot they're a peoples' car and is trying to become a status brand for the wealthy qurky suburbanites.
- 4ndrewl 2y ago
  idk, there's a market for expensive ICE vw buses in the UK. 60k is top-end, but the id.buzz is a niche vehicle for sure
- dagw 2y ago
  At ~60k a pop who can spend that on a small bus? They seem to be super popular among trades people and as commercial vehicles. I have to admit I hardly ever see them in 'passenger' configuration.
- gessha 2y ago
  I looked at pricing original pricing info for Volkswagen Microbus [1] and I adjusted it for inflation. I came up with prices in the range of 20k~30k. 60k is definitely a lot but then I remember that most sedans are in the 20k, and the Toyota Sienna is in the 40k. The pricing of the bus compared to other cars makes sense but it's still too much. It makes more sense to buy used tbh. [1] https://www.ratwell.com/technical/MSRP.html https://www.ratwell.com/technical/MSRP.html [2] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ [3] https://www.toyota.com/sienna/ https://www.toyota.com/sienna/
atombender 2y ago
The ID range is actually great, and I'm hoping VW will be able to recover. I've driven the ID.3 a bunch of times, and it's vastly superior to a Tesla. More pragmatic and practical cars, real buttons, thoughtful design choices, as well as some advanced ones (the LED matrix headlights are magical).
- lnsru 2y ago
  VW (group) should do something about their sick prices. In my case model y was simply cheaper by €15k compared to Škoda Enyaq and ID.4. It’s a lot of money. Plus these drum brakes and low maximal speed in first generation cars. ID.7 is super cool car, but way to expensive. ID.Buzz as expensive as Tesla model X. VW should investigate why their cars are that expensive. Plus Tesla’s 4 year warranty with ranger coming to your parking lot. I remember all the drama with VW Autohaus and begging for the time to service a car there. Endless arrogance. Plus unbeatable electricity price at Tesla‘s supercharger network. Volkswagen and others have some homework to do. There is not really many cars that can match entry level model 3 at 41000€, just look how expensive the ID.3s are: https://www.volkswagen.de/de/konfigurator.html/__app/id-3.app?---=%7B%22configuration-step-navigation-service%22%3A%22%2F%3FconfigStep%3D%257B%2522context%2522%253A%252230350-35212-GOAL%2522%252C%2522selectedStep%2522%253A%2522trim%2522%257D%22%7D&campaign=10003580%7CID3_AO&language=DE&adchan=seah&publisher=GOGL&country=DE&adplt=pseac&cpid=&adver=p66180956328&format=NU&adpay=pd&adpl=adtext&adcr=vw+id.3&adgroup=Core_ID3_%5BAMT%5D&seatype=branded&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADEbU6HGkPaamvxZMqEZkK78nuexk&gclid=CjwKCAiArKW-BhAzEiwAZhWsIHsiqxkYGE-T2cSkitf1yVH7nRleV5hN81xhBDxd8zyaJ7pg71zl3RoCYL8QAvD_BwE https://www.volkswagen.de/de/konfigurator.html/__app/id-3.ap...
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    >VW should investigate why their cars are that expensive. Investigate what exactly? This is a known accounting fact. Where do you think the money comes from that gets every German VW factory worker 30+ vacation days per year, paid sick days whenever they don't feel like coming to work, great pension plans, inflation beating Yearly raises, unions that keep unproductive people from getting fired and best severance packages in the industry in case they do. All those perks they have get priced into the final product. You can't manufacture cheap commodity goods while treating your workers so lavishly when competing with Asia and how they treat their manufacturing labor. This was economically feasible when European cars had no foreign competition in terms of quality and technology, but this is not the case anymore and something will have to give.
brookst 2y ago
China’s automakers are a “slowly, then suddenly” story. Geely bought 20% of the company that makes London’s cabs in 2006, then all of Volvo in 2009, the. A controlling interest in Lotus in 2017. They’ve used increasing scale to create shared platforms across brands (including new brands like Polestar). It’s really a classic well-executed capitalist play of rolling up smaller companies into larger enterprises with greater scale economies and deeper expertise and vertical integration. It’s great to see, and gives me in the sometimes-dubious capitalist claim that incumbents at a sufficient level of complacency get eaten.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago

> And I really like that bus they have now, it's super cute. At ~60k a pop who can spend that on a small bus? Maybe rich Californians. VW forgot they're a peoples' car and is trying to become a status brand for the wealthy qurky suburbanites.

4ndrewl 2y ago
idk, there's a market for expensive ICE vw buses in the UK. 60k is top-end, but the id.buzz is a niche vehicle for sure
dagw 2y ago
At ~60k a pop who can spend that on a small bus? They seem to be super popular among trades people and as commercial vehicles. I have to admit I hardly ever see them in 'passenger' configuration.
gessha 2y ago
I looked at pricing original pricing info for Volkswagen Microbus [1] and I adjusted it for inflation. I came up with prices in the range of 20k~30k. 60k is definitely a lot but then I remember that most sedans are in the 20k, and the Toyota Sienna is in the 40k. The pricing of the bus compared to other cars makes sense but it's still too much. It makes more sense to buy used tbh. [1] https://www.ratwell.com/technical/MSRP.html https://www.ratwell.com/technical/MSRP.html [2] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ [3] https://www.toyota.com/sienna/ https://www.toyota.com/sienna/

atombender 2y ago

The ID range is actually great, and I'm hoping VW will be able to recover. I've driven the ID.3 a bunch of times, and it's vastly superior to a Tesla. More pragmatic and practical cars, real buttons, thoughtful design choices, as well as some advanced ones (the LED matrix headlights are magical).

lnsru 2y ago
VW (group) should do something about their sick prices. In my case model y was simply cheaper by €15k compared to Škoda Enyaq and ID.4. It’s a lot of money. Plus these drum brakes and low maximal speed in first generation cars. ID.7 is super cool car, but way to expensive. ID.Buzz as expensive as Tesla model X. VW should investigate why their cars are that expensive. Plus Tesla’s 4 year warranty with ranger coming to your parking lot. I remember all the drama with VW Autohaus and begging for the time to service a car there. Endless arrogance. Plus unbeatable electricity price at Tesla‘s supercharger network. Volkswagen and others have some homework to do. There is not really many cars that can match entry level model 3 at 41000€, just look how expensive the ID.3s are: https://www.volkswagen.de/de/konfigurator.html/__app/id-3.app?---=%7B%22configuration-step-navigation-service%22%3A%22%2F%3FconfigStep%3D%257B%2522context%2522%253A%252230350-35212-GOAL%2522%252C%2522selectedStep%2522%253A%2522trim%2522%257D%22%7D&campaign=10003580%7CID3_AO&language=DE&adchan=seah&publisher=GOGL&country=DE&adplt=pseac&cpid=&adver=p66180956328&format=NU&adpay=pd&adpl=adtext&adcr=vw+id.3&adgroup=Core_ID3_%5BAMT%5D&seatype=branded&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADEbU6HGkPaamvxZMqEZkK78nuexk&gclid=CjwKCAiArKW-BhAzEiwAZhWsIHsiqxkYGE-T2cSkitf1yVH7nRleV5hN81xhBDxd8zyaJ7pg71zl3RoCYL8QAvD_BwE https://www.volkswagen.de/de/konfigurator.html/__app/id-3.ap...
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >VW should investigate why their cars are that expensive. Investigate what exactly? This is a known accounting fact. Where do you think the money comes from that gets every German VW factory worker 30+ vacation days per year, paid sick days whenever they don't feel like coming to work, great pension plans, inflation beating Yearly raises, unions that keep unproductive people from getting fired and best severance packages in the industry in case they do. All those perks they have get priced into the final product. You can't manufacture cheap commodity goods while treating your workers so lavishly when competing with Asia and how they treat their manufacturing labor. This was economically feasible when European cars had no foreign competition in terms of quality and technology, but this is not the case anymore and something will have to give.

brookst 2y ago

China’s automakers are a “slowly, then suddenly” story. Geely bought 20% of the company that makes London’s cabs in 2006, then all of Volvo in 2009, the. A controlling interest in Lotus in 2017. They’ve used increasing scale to create shared platforms across brands (including new brands like Polestar). It’s really a classic well-executed capitalist play of rolling up smaller companies into larger enterprises with greater scale economies and deeper expertise and vertical integration. It’s great to see, and gives me in the sometimes-dubious capitalist claim that incumbents at a sufficient level of complacency get eaten.