5 ms·

Promoting peace and democracy? By arresting politicians opposed to them and funding and supporting wars?

pastage 2y ago
Maybe be specific, are there any specific wars you find undemocratic. Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated, the attack on Ukraine is seen as an attack on Europe but is also heavily debated.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated Also, not European wars. In particular, only two European countries participated in Iraq.
  - u8080 2y ago
    UK, Poland and Ukraine, two of them are not in EU now.
amarcheschi 2y ago
I guess you're referring to the Romanian candidate which was found to have millions of euros and tickets to Russia. Yes, protecting democracy and peace also includes punishing those who put at risk the existence of peace and democracy. For the war part, it kinda tickles your butt having a war on your neighbor's garden, I see nothing wrong with supporting such a war (on Ukraine side's, of course)
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >I guess you're referring to the Romanian candidate which was found to have millions of euros and tickets to Russia. You mean just like politicians from Austria and Germany who were Putin's lobbying arm in Europe, then took jobs at Russian oil and gas companies when their political careers ended? Why didn't they get arrested too? >Yes, protecting democracy and peace also includes punishing those who put at risk the existence of peace and democracy. And who gets to decides who are those "violators of democracy" when they're popular with the voters? The current corrupt Romanian government with vested interest to stay in power and keep competitors away from challenging the status quo? Because in the case of Georgescu the intelligence agencies making the claims about his connections to Russia have not provided no such evidence to the public. So how do you know that their assessment is truthful? Because the government would never ever lie to you right? Right? Sorry, but "trust me bro, he's guilty" from the Romanian authorities doesn't fly with me. Otherwise JD Vance wouldn't have pointed it out if he were a Russian trojan horse. >For the war part, it kinda tickles your butt having a war on your neighbor's garden, I see nothing wrong with supporting such a war (on Ukraine side's, of course) I have a problem when the war gets too expensive and no progress gets made. Biden and EU kept doing this for 3 years already. We're just funneling endless taxpayer money into a black hole at this point while more Ukrainians keep dying. Ending this conflict peacefully ASAP through negotiations and concessions is the way to go. This isn't fighting Gaza or Iraq. You can't win a conflict against a nuclear superpower via conventional means.
  - amarcheschi 2y ago
    I would be fine with having corrupt politicians arrested in Germany, too, if they were found guilty of corruption, I do not see why they should be exempt I do not believe for an instant than the roman salute making roman candidate isn't a Russian asset, given his salute shows support for other Russian friendly politicians currently sitting at the white house. Regarding the war, AFAIK Ukrainians would rather be in the conditions to continue fighting than to surrender and sign an unfair peace agreement. I would have no issues with rearming Europe if it meant that, as proposed, we would get a better pipeline for European weapons procurement. Having basically stopped the advance of Russia is a huge win on its own, given that it was supposed to be one of the most powerful armies in the world. Shrugging this off as "no progress" is unjust to the taxpayers as well to the Ukrainians
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      You're not arguing in good faith using logic , proof and reason, you're deflecting my questions using optics and biases, so i will end the conversation here.
      - amarcheschi 2y ago
        Reason is when Russian puppets get elected due to external interference
        FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Where's the proof they were Russian puppets?
- johngladtj 2y ago
  Yes of course. After all what could be more undemocratic than, let me check, "voting to change your countries foreign policy" Pro-tip: if your democracy doesn't support changing course on foreign policy engagements, you're not a democracy
  - amarcheschi 2y ago
    There's a stark difference between voting to change your countries foreign policy and an enemy state interference in the affairs in the country. The Romanian candidate said he had spent nothing for the campaign, but that is not true given the recent developments, and these donations were part of the decision to abort the election results https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/12/04/declassified-romanian-intelligence-suggests-state-actor-behind-georgescus-campaign https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/12/04/declassified-r... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusations_of_Russian_interference_in_the_2024_Romanian_presidential_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusations_of_Russian_inter...
lpcvoid 2y ago
The favorite russian playbook, framing people who support Ukraine's right to self defense in face of a genocidal invasion as warmongers. EU security == Ukraine security.
- sras-me 2y ago
  Assuming you are not from Ukraine, how much of your paycheck are you willing to sacrifice for the support for Ukraine, like indefinitely?
  - lpcvoid 2y ago
    I am willing to give 1% indefinitely (that's how much I currently donate monthly) until Ukraine is a free nation.
    - sras-me 2y ago
      Fair enough. I suppose it is your decision to donate 1%. But would you like your president to make that decision for you? Would it be okay with it you if they asked you to sacrifice like 60% of your pay towards this cause, that too indefinitely?
      - lpcvoid 2y ago
        It's a donation towards the greater good of Europe, so up to a certain amount I am absolutely for it. I have no say in taxation in the first place (well, indirectly through voting, but you know what I mean). 60% is excessive though, and would make it impossible for people to pay bills. That's detrimental for the future of Europe :)
        sras-me 2y ago
        Ok, now let us also take into account that as this conflict continue, the chance of a nuclear escalation goes up, day by day. Would you still support to fund this and make this conflict go on and on, possibly until someone becomes so desperate that they do something stupid?

Maybe be specific, are there any specific wars you find undemocratic. Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated, the attack on Ukraine is seen as an attack on Europe but is also heavily debated.

rsynnott 2y ago
> Afganistan and Iraq was heavily debated Also, not European wars. In particular, only two European countries participated in Iraq.
- u8080 2y ago
  UK, Poland and Ukraine, two of them are not in EU now.

amarcheschi 2y ago

I guess you're referring to the Romanian candidate which was found to have millions of euros and tickets to Russia. Yes, protecting democracy and peace also includes punishing those who put at risk the existence of peace and democracy. For the war part, it kinda tickles your butt having a war on your neighbor's garden, I see nothing wrong with supporting such a war (on Ukraine side's, of course)

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>I guess you're referring to the Romanian candidate which was found to have millions of euros and tickets to Russia. You mean just like politicians from Austria and Germany who were Putin's lobbying arm in Europe, then took jobs at Russian oil and gas companies when their political careers ended? Why didn't they get arrested too? >Yes, protecting democracy and peace also includes punishing those who put at risk the existence of peace and democracy. And who gets to decides who are those "violators of democracy" when they're popular with the voters? The current corrupt Romanian government with vested interest to stay in power and keep competitors away from challenging the status quo? Because in the case of Georgescu the intelligence agencies making the claims about his connections to Russia have not provided no such evidence to the public. So how do you know that their assessment is truthful? Because the government would never ever lie to you right? Right? Sorry, but "trust me bro, he's guilty" from the Romanian authorities doesn't fly with me. Otherwise JD Vance wouldn't have pointed it out if he were a Russian trojan horse. >For the war part, it kinda tickles your butt having a war on your neighbor's garden, I see nothing wrong with supporting such a war (on Ukraine side's, of course) I have a problem when the war gets too expensive and no progress gets made. Biden and EU kept doing this for 3 years already. We're just funneling endless taxpayer money into a black hole at this point while more Ukrainians keep dying. Ending this conflict peacefully ASAP through negotiations and concessions is the way to go. This isn't fighting Gaza or Iraq. You can't win a conflict against a nuclear superpower via conventional means.
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  I would be fine with having corrupt politicians arrested in Germany, too, if they were found guilty of corruption, I do not see why they should be exempt I do not believe for an instant than the roman salute making roman candidate isn't a Russian asset, given his salute shows support for other Russian friendly politicians currently sitting at the white house. Regarding the war, AFAIK Ukrainians would rather be in the conditions to continue fighting than to surrender and sign an unfair peace agreement. I would have no issues with rearming Europe if it meant that, as proposed, we would get a better pipeline for European weapons procurement. Having basically stopped the advance of Russia is a huge win on its own, given that it was supposed to be one of the most powerful armies in the world. Shrugging this off as "no progress" is unjust to the taxpayers as well to the Ukrainians
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    You're not arguing in good faith using logic , proof and reason, you're deflecting my questions using optics and biases, so i will end the conversation here.
    - amarcheschi 2y ago
      Reason is when Russian puppets get elected due to external interference
      - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        Where's the proof they were Russian puppets?
johngladtj 2y ago
Yes of course. After all what could be more undemocratic than, let me check, "voting to change your countries foreign policy" Pro-tip: if your democracy doesn't support changing course on foreign policy engagements, you're not a democracy
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  There's a stark difference between voting to change your countries foreign policy and an enemy state interference in the affairs in the country. The Romanian candidate said he had spent nothing for the campaign, but that is not true given the recent developments, and these donations were part of the decision to abort the election results https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/12/04/declassified-romanian-intelligence-suggests-state-actor-behind-georgescus-campaign https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/12/04/declassified-r... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusations_of_Russian_interference_in_the_2024_Romanian_presidential_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusations_of_Russian_inter...

lpcvoid 2y ago

The favorite russian playbook, framing people who support Ukraine's right to self defense in face of a genocidal invasion as warmongers. EU security == Ukraine security.

sras-me 2y ago
Assuming you are not from Ukraine, how much of your paycheck are you willing to sacrifice for the support for Ukraine, like indefinitely?
- lpcvoid 2y ago
  I am willing to give 1% indefinitely (that's how much I currently donate monthly) until Ukraine is a free nation.
  - sras-me 2y ago
    Fair enough. I suppose it is your decision to donate 1%. But would you like your president to make that decision for you? Would it be okay with it you if they asked you to sacrifice like 60% of your pay towards this cause, that too indefinitely?
    - lpcvoid 2y ago
      It's a donation towards the greater good of Europe, so up to a certain amount I am absolutely for it. I have no say in taxation in the first place (well, indirectly through voting, but you know what I mean). 60% is excessive though, and would make it impossible for people to pay bills. That's detrimental for the future of Europe :)
      - sras-me 2y ago
        Ok, now let us also take into account that as this conflict continue, the chance of a nuclear escalation goes up, day by day. Would you still support to fund this and make this conflict go on and on, possibly until someone becomes so desperate that they do something stupid?