4 ms·

The US has been an empire for a long time. They were just much more clever and effective about it and have been aligning themselves with western democracies. T

by dgb23 2y ago

The US has been an empire for a long time. They were just much more clever and effective about it and have been aligning themselves with western democracies. This seems to be ending now. Europe is being bombarded by fascist propaganda internally, from Russia and now the US as well (primarily perpetuated by Musk). For some reason everyone decided that breaking up and weakening Europe is a majorly important goal. I can't shake the feeling that this is a coordinated effort.

giva 2y ago
It's all written here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
bayindirh 2y ago
> They were just much more clever and effective about it... I know. This is why I added an "(overt)" here. > For some reason everyone decided that breaking up and weakening Europe is a majorly important goal. People might not know it much, but Europe has some silent power about some very important aspects of this world. Removing this power will allow seeding of infighting and removal of tons of regulations in physical and digital realm, allowing much more "monies" for the rich. Plus, Europe is leaving fossil based fuels faster than anyone else. It's all about monies now. The rest can be (modern) peasants and merely survive. It doesn't matter as long as monies keep coming. It's a fusion of Brave new World and 1984. Look at Australian politics. One prominent figure allegedly told that $2/day is enough for many people.
tim333 2y ago
I dispute the US is an empire. I get that all the time from Russian propagandists saying they are fighting the expansion of the US empire but there isn't one. I'm a Brit and we used to have a real empire where you'd appoint a viceroy to run the country and build colonial headquarters and station troops and beat up or imprison the locals if they go uppity. Calling the US an empire because it if friendly and does business with other countries is just propping up the fascist propaganda.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  Give a read to Marshall Plan [0]. Under this plan, some countries are coerced to abandon building their own advanced goods (like planes), and given promises of supply from the US, fueling the technology gap with some countries in the mid-term. This plan is what made Europe to be semi-dependent on US for defense and some advanced tech. My country had to re-invent the wheel countless times to close that gap, sometimes getting flak from the US, and even some technologies are outright denied to us to keep us vulnerable in some cases. This plan is what made US a "soft-empire", though everybody signed into it because they had to. Now, the current US administration wants to discontinue these warranties, and Europe is starting the ReArm program. Another face of the US (the Greater US) is discussed in this book [1], also worth reading, which is in my reading list. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan [1]: https://www.amazon.com/How-Hide-Empire-History-Greater-ebook/dp/B07D6MGV9Y https://www.amazon.com/How-Hide-Empire-History-Greater-ebook...
  - tim333 2y ago
    The Marshall Plan doesn't mention empire. Wikipedia defines them as >An empire is a political unit made up of several territories, military outposts, and peoples, "usually created by conquest, and divided between a dominant center and subordinate peripheries". I've sort of argued with Russian propagandists going on about Europe being part of the US empire so the Russians are only doing the same by sending tanks into Ukraine but it isn't really like that. I mean the UK is obligated to help defend the US under NATO and we did sent troops to Afgansitan on their behalf so is the US part of the British Empire or is the the UK part of the US Empire and how can we tell? Where are the viceroys? At that point I mostly get blocked. I mean you can redefine the words so everywhere that watches netflix is part of the US cultural empire but it's not empire in the traditional British Empire sense and gets a bit meaninless if you include everything.
    - vaidhy 2y ago
      Seems like I like arguing.. let us go with your definition.. US has several outlying territories. US has around 800 military bases around the world. In SK and Japan (and to a large extent in Australia), US dictates the policies. The world institutions have been mostly controlled by the US without putting itself under their jurisdiction. I see one dominant center with several subordinate peripheries - in Europe, Australia, SK, Japan and the island nations of Pacific. Unlike olden days, you do not need to send people as governers directly. You only need to control the trade, defence and foreign policies.
rsynnott 2y ago
> For some reason everyone decided that breaking up and weakening Europe is a majorly important goal. If we assume that the US is in the process of moving away from being a democracy, or at least becoming an illiberal democracy (I personally think that this is _slightly_ pessimistic and that the Supreme Court may surprise us and save it yet, but it's an idea that's very much out there) then Europe (defined broadly) is left as the last major outpost of liberal democracy in the world (or second-last; you could argue India either way to some extent); it then makes some sense that it would be targeted by authoritarian and moving-towards-authoritarian states.

by dgb23 2y ago

giva 2y ago

It's all written here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

bayindirh 2y ago

> They were just much more clever and effective about it... I know. This is why I added an "(overt)" here. > For some reason everyone decided that breaking up and weakening Europe is a majorly important goal. People might not know it much, but Europe has some silent power about some very important aspects of this world. Removing this power will allow seeding of infighting and removal of tons of regulations in physical and digital realm, allowing much more "monies" for the rich. Plus, Europe is leaving fossil based fuels faster than anyone else. It's all about monies now. The rest can be (modern) peasants and merely survive. It doesn't matter as long as monies keep coming. It's a fusion of Brave new World and 1984. Look at Australian politics. One prominent figure allegedly told that $2/day is enough for many people.

tim333 2y ago

I dispute the US is an empire. I get that all the time from Russian propagandists saying they are fighting the expansion of the US empire but there isn't one. I'm a Brit and we used to have a real empire where you'd appoint a viceroy to run the country and build colonial headquarters and station troops and beat up or imprison the locals if they go uppity. Calling the US an empire because it if friendly and does business with other countries is just propping up the fascist propaganda.

bayindirh 2y ago
Give a read to Marshall Plan [0]. Under this plan, some countries are coerced to abandon building their own advanced goods (like planes), and given promises of supply from the US, fueling the technology gap with some countries in the mid-term. This plan is what made Europe to be semi-dependent on US for defense and some advanced tech. My country had to re-invent the wheel countless times to close that gap, sometimes getting flak from the US, and even some technologies are outright denied to us to keep us vulnerable in some cases. This plan is what made US a "soft-empire", though everybody signed into it because they had to. Now, the current US administration wants to discontinue these warranties, and Europe is starting the ReArm program. Another face of the US (the Greater US) is discussed in this book [1], also worth reading, which is in my reading list. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan [1]: https://www.amazon.com/How-Hide-Empire-History-Greater-ebook/dp/B07D6MGV9Y https://www.amazon.com/How-Hide-Empire-History-Greater-ebook...
- tim333 2y ago
  The Marshall Plan doesn't mention empire. Wikipedia defines them as >An empire is a political unit made up of several territories, military outposts, and peoples, "usually created by conquest, and divided between a dominant center and subordinate peripheries". I've sort of argued with Russian propagandists going on about Europe being part of the US empire so the Russians are only doing the same by sending tanks into Ukraine but it isn't really like that. I mean the UK is obligated to help defend the US under NATO and we did sent troops to Afgansitan on their behalf so is the US part of the British Empire or is the the UK part of the US Empire and how can we tell? Where are the viceroys? At that point I mostly get blocked. I mean you can redefine the words so everywhere that watches netflix is part of the US cultural empire but it's not empire in the traditional British Empire sense and gets a bit meaninless if you include everything.
  - vaidhy 2y ago
    Seems like I like arguing.. let us go with your definition.. US has several outlying territories. US has around 800 military bases around the world. In SK and Japan (and to a large extent in Australia), US dictates the policies. The world institutions have been mostly controlled by the US without putting itself under their jurisdiction. I see one dominant center with several subordinate peripheries - in Europe, Australia, SK, Japan and the island nations of Pacific. Unlike olden days, you do not need to send people as governers directly. You only need to control the trade, defence and foreign policies.

rsynnott 2y ago

> For some reason everyone decided that breaking up and weakening Europe is a majorly important goal. If we assume that the US is in the process of moving away from being a democracy, or at least becoming an illiberal democracy (I personally think that this is _slightly_ pessimistic and that the Supreme Court may surprise us and save it yet, but it's an idea that's very much out there) then Europe (defined broadly) is left as the last major outpost of liberal democracy in the world (or second-last; you could argue India either way to some extent); it then makes some sense that it would be targeted by authoritarian and moving-towards-authoritarian states.