19 ms·

The instrumentation is there. The personnel who run it are still there. All we're talking about is collecting and sharing the data. This cut will save chump

by beloch 2y ago

The instrumentation is there. The personnel who run it are still there. All we're talking about is collecting and sharing the data. This cut will save chump change at best. Why take it down? Honestly, I think Trump is sending a deliberate message here and in a thousand other ways. If you trust the U.S. or rely on the U.S. for anything, no matter how tiny, the new U.S. is going to screw you. It doesn't matter if it was a mutually beneficial collaboration. The U.S. is happy to screw themselves in the process of screwing you. You can't bargain with them. Nothing you say or do will matter. They are going to hurt you because that is the U.S.'s new policy towards it's friends and especially its allies. Trump is not being selfish or putting America's interests first. He's putting someone else's interests above those of the country he ostensibly serves. A lot of what he's doing makes absolutely no sense until you view it this way, and then it all makes sense.

ljosifov 2y ago
IDK whether you know it, but in case you don't—you articulated Cippola's definition "stupid is one causing harm to others while not deriving any gain, even taking a small personal loss" above. If you are interested further, I encourage you to check his pamphlet "The Basic Laws Of Human Stupidity". (is "book" too big word for it?) I must say I got a lot out of it and it's followups. It became much easier for me to understand the world around me, what is happening. And even predict what's to happen sometimes. What you observe with Trump admin: 1) it's stupidity; 2) it's not low IQ or lack of rationality; 3) it's lack of morals, not caring about good/bad, or even considering good what the rest consider bad (and vice versa); 4) it's social more than individual, it's a "mind virus". (ha!-Musk) Bonhoeffer‘s "Theory of Stupidity" https://youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc https://youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc (bad morals not low IQ, mind virus social more than individual) Sabine Hossenfelder "Collective Stupidity -- How Can We Avoid It?" https://youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng https://youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng (more cases, much more analytical, only about the group aspect not individual)
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > you articulated Cippola's definition "stupid is one causing harm to others while not deriving any gain, even taking a small personal loss" No need to redefine stupid. We have a word already for that: spite.
  - ljosifov 2y ago
    I don't necessarily disagree on the need - but it's not my (re)definition. Having said that - I rather like the use. "Stupid" is part of quartet. All humans are categorised in four categories: intelligent (I), helpless (H), stupid (S), bandit (B). In X-Y coordinate system, by quadrant Q, actions taken by Tom, that affect both Tom (on X-axis) and Dick (on Y-axis): - Q1 (+,+) Tom gain and Dick gain => Tom was intelligent (I). - Q2 (-,+) Tom loss and Dick gain => Tom was helpless (H). - Q3 (-,-) Tom loss and Dick loss => Tom was stupid (S). - Q4 (+,-) Tom gain and Dick loss => Tom was a bandit (B). Specifically on the S-Stupid in quadrant Q3 (-,-): + There is no upper bound on the amount of stupidity that can exist within any particular individual. + We always underestimate the number of stupid people. + The probability of a person being stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person. + A stupid person is someone who causes damage to another person, or a group of people, without any advantage accruing to himself (or herself), or even with some resultant self-damage. (Golden law of stupidity) + Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid people, and that it's impossible to predict the actions of the stupid. + A stupid person S is the most dangerous person (compared to I, H, B), and crucially stupid S is more dangerous than a bandit B. This is all on individual one unit level. Another relevant observation I can think of is Bismarck-ian most dangerous general — stupid and energetic. Bonhoeffer is the one to make a connection to morality. That looks very important observation to me. And that it happens in groups, like a mind virus-I can see that. Sabine's video is all about collective stupidity. (Extraordinary Popular Delusions as a mirror image to Wisdom of crowds.)
- beloch 2y ago
  I am familiar with this definition of stupidity as well as the Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." The thing is, I don't think what Trump is doing is adequately explained by stupidity. He's going well out of his way to harm the U.S.'s own interests in a way that, by too-strange a coincidence, helps Russia.
  - DFHippie 2y ago
    Yep. If Putin managed to install a Trojan Horse president bent on attacking the country internally on all fronts, that president would do what Trump is doing. What's flabbergasting is how the Republican Party is enabling this. I thought they had more self-respect. I think the dam will break and many people will start pretending they never supported Trump. And I think this Trump's minders know this, which is why they're destroying everything with such haste. They know they have limited time to gut the country.
    - chuckadams 2y ago
      That's been the Republican MO since the 90's: break everything, then blame the Democrats for not cleaning up the mess fast enough. I always expected that behavior. What I never thought I'd live to see was watching the Republican Party of all people outright turn into a Russian fifth column.
      - TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
        It shouldn't be a surprise to see greedy selfish people being corrupted by foreign money. Russia is neither the first nor the only country to be doing this in the US.
        chuckadams 2y ago
        I think "Russia, if you're listening" goes well beyond just foreign money.
bayindirh 2y ago
From this side of the pond, it seems like US is now an (overt) empire which only cares about themselves and would be happy to crush anything and everything which doesn't acknowledge them as the kings of the planet or disrespect them the slightest sense.
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  I know this could be said of any country at any time, but please don't conflate the current administration with the whole American people. Many, many of us are bewildered by Trump's actions, and consider him a some inscrutable mix of evil, stupid, and deranged. I'm not even politically left (I'm pretty centrist), and I know I'm not alone in being perplexed by how he won the election.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    > but please don't conflate the current administration with the whole American people. No, never. I have enough experience on that matter due to where I live and due to friends I have all over Europe and US. People and the administration of the country they happen to born/live in are completely detached in my mind.
    - monkey_monkey 2y ago
      Who do you think votes in the administation of a country?
      - bayindirh 2y ago
        Yes, people, and not all my friends and relatives might share the same values with me. That's OK. However, sometimes people get more than what they bargained for, and I'm sure some people are in that situation right now. Look, I'm from a country which is going through the exact process. It's much more complicated than that. It'd fill books.
        deleted 2y ago
rapnie 2y ago
Things may also be related to the ideologies Thiel et al are promoting that involve destruction of the state in favor or more, umm, entrepreneurial governance models. Where billionaires can be themselves and the world is their oyster. There are a whole lot of articles circulating that delve into various aspects. I don't know if the ideologies have formal names, but "techno fascism" was among them.
- nerdponx 2y ago
  This predates Thiel. The wealthy elite want a return to the 19th century gilded age and spent the entire 20th century working at it. The Trump administration is the latest success in a continuous campaign of American internal self-destruction that dates back to the origins of modern "conservatism" with politicians like Goldwater and Nixon, with things really kicking off under Reagan.
tonyhart7 2y ago
I'm sorry but this is apply to all government no??? not only US
xtiansimon 2y ago
“…Trump is sending a deliberate message…” Let’s not ignore the obvious—He doesn’t seem interested in government or leadership, but he is interested in power. If his long arms can take something away, then you must make treaty and negotiate to get it back. And it goes the other way, if China is upset about the service, he can turn it off and see what leverage or opening that gives him in negotiations. I see these moves as distraction, and power play. It’s difficult to see any deliberation in service of values.
hackyhacky 2y ago
> The U.S. is happy to screw themselves in the process of screwing you. Don't forget that Trump also hates environmentalism in any form. Air quality metrics would acknowledge that pollution exists, which contradicts his opinions.
- leereeves 2y ago
  I'm curious, is there any evidence that Trump ordered this? We should also consider the possibility that this is malicious compliance by people trying to embarrass Trump.
  - hackyhacky 2y ago
    > I'm curious, is there any evidence that Trump ordered this? Trump is the chief executive of the United States. Either he ordered, or he hired some who ordered it. That's how it works. > We should also consider the possibility that this is malicious compliance by people trying to embarrass Trump. How much does Trump pay you to say such things?
svilen_dobrev 2y ago
> happy to screw themselves in the process of screwing you heh. There is some region here (Shopsko), with somewhat weirdo's population, and they do have such a saying: "i will burn my house if that would burn my neighbour's shed" interesting..
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  "A Republican would happily eat dog shit if he thought a Liberal would have to smell his breath."
swat535 2y ago
Assuming the U.S ends up losing its grip on international relations in the next 4 years, or perhaps 8 if the Republicans are nominated again (something that is certainly possible), who do you think is best positioned to steal the crown? France? Germany? China? Israel?.. Additionally, as a Canadian, I wonder what will happen to us (and I suspect Mexicans are in a similar position) given our undeniable reliance on the United States. Canada, in its current political and economic climate, is not in a strong position, and right wing extremism has been on the rise. Some people are even literally advocating for _merging_ with the United States. While I think that is unlikely, I do wonder what our future will hold? I personally don't know how to feel about the future.

by beloch 2y ago

ljosifov 2y ago

IDK whether you know it, but in case you don't—you articulated Cippola's definition "stupid is one causing harm to others while not deriving any gain, even taking a small personal loss" above. If you are interested further, I encourage you to check his pamphlet "The Basic Laws Of Human Stupidity". (is "book" too big word for it?) I must say I got a lot out of it and it's followups. It became much easier for me to understand the world around me, what is happening. And even predict what's to happen sometimes. What you observe with Trump admin: 1) it's stupidity; 2) it's not low IQ or lack of rationality; 3) it's lack of morals, not caring about good/bad, or even considering good what the rest consider bad (and vice versa); 4) it's social more than individual, it's a "mind virus". (ha!-Musk) Bonhoeffer‘s "Theory of Stupidity" https://youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc https://youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc (bad morals not low IQ, mind virus social more than individual) Sabine Hossenfelder "Collective Stupidity -- How Can We Avoid It?" https://youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng https://youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng (more cases, much more analytical, only about the group aspect not individual)

robertlagrant 2y ago
> you articulated Cippola's definition "stupid is one causing harm to others while not deriving any gain, even taking a small personal loss" No need to redefine stupid. We have a word already for that: spite.
- ljosifov 2y ago
  I don't necessarily disagree on the need - but it's not my (re)definition. Having said that - I rather like the use. "Stupid" is part of quartet. All humans are categorised in four categories: intelligent (I), helpless (H), stupid (S), bandit (B). In X-Y coordinate system, by quadrant Q, actions taken by Tom, that affect both Tom (on X-axis) and Dick (on Y-axis): - Q1 (+,+) Tom gain and Dick gain => Tom was intelligent (I). - Q2 (-,+) Tom loss and Dick gain => Tom was helpless (H). - Q3 (-,-) Tom loss and Dick loss => Tom was stupid (S). - Q4 (+,-) Tom gain and Dick loss => Tom was a bandit (B). Specifically on the S-Stupid in quadrant Q3 (-,-): + There is no upper bound on the amount of stupidity that can exist within any particular individual. + We always underestimate the number of stupid people. + The probability of a person being stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person. + A stupid person is someone who causes damage to another person, or a group of people, without any advantage accruing to himself (or herself), or even with some resultant self-damage. (Golden law of stupidity) + Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid people, and that it's impossible to predict the actions of the stupid. + A stupid person S is the most dangerous person (compared to I, H, B), and crucially stupid S is more dangerous than a bandit B. This is all on individual one unit level. Another relevant observation I can think of is Bismarck-ian most dangerous general — stupid and energetic. Bonhoeffer is the one to make a connection to morality. That looks very important observation to me. And that it happens in groups, like a mind virus-I can see that. Sabine's video is all about collective stupidity. (Extraordinary Popular Delusions as a mirror image to Wisdom of crowds.)
beloch 2y ago
I am familiar with this definition of stupidity as well as the Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." The thing is, I don't think what Trump is doing is adequately explained by stupidity. He's going well out of his way to harm the U.S.'s own interests in a way that, by too-strange a coincidence, helps Russia.
- DFHippie 2y ago
  Yep. If Putin managed to install a Trojan Horse president bent on attacking the country internally on all fronts, that president would do what Trump is doing. What's flabbergasting is how the Republican Party is enabling this. I thought they had more self-respect. I think the dam will break and many people will start pretending they never supported Trump. And I think this Trump's minders know this, which is why they're destroying everything with such haste. They know they have limited time to gut the country.
  - chuckadams 2y ago
    That's been the Republican MO since the 90's: break everything, then blame the Democrats for not cleaning up the mess fast enough. I always expected that behavior. What I never thought I'd live to see was watching the Republican Party of all people outright turn into a Russian fifth column.
    - TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
      It shouldn't be a surprise to see greedy selfish people being corrupted by foreign money. Russia is neither the first nor the only country to be doing this in the US.
      - chuckadams 2y ago
        I think "Russia, if you're listening" goes well beyond just foreign money.

bayindirh 2y ago

From this side of the pond, it seems like US is now an (overt) empire which only cares about themselves and would be happy to crush anything and everything which doesn't acknowledge them as the kings of the planet or disrespect them the slightest sense.

CoastalCoder 2y ago
I know this could be said of any country at any time, but please don't conflate the current administration with the whole American people. Many, many of us are bewildered by Trump's actions, and consider him a some inscrutable mix of evil, stupid, and deranged. I'm not even politically left (I'm pretty centrist), and I know I'm not alone in being perplexed by how he won the election.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  > but please don't conflate the current administration with the whole American people. No, never. I have enough experience on that matter due to where I live and due to friends I have all over Europe and US. People and the administration of the country they happen to born/live in are completely detached in my mind.
  - monkey_monkey 2y ago
    Who do you think votes in the administation of a country?
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      Yes, people, and not all my friends and relatives might share the same values with me. That's OK. However, sometimes people get more than what they bargained for, and I'm sure some people are in that situation right now. Look, I'm from a country which is going through the exact process. It's much more complicated than that. It'd fill books.
      - deleted 2y ago

rapnie 2y ago

Things may also be related to the ideologies Thiel et al are promoting that involve destruction of the state in favor or more, umm, entrepreneurial governance models. Where billionaires can be themselves and the world is their oyster. There are a whole lot of articles circulating that delve into various aspects. I don't know if the ideologies have formal names, but "techno fascism" was among them.

nerdponx 2y ago
This predates Thiel. The wealthy elite want a return to the 19th century gilded age and spent the entire 20th century working at it. The Trump administration is the latest success in a continuous campaign of American internal self-destruction that dates back to the origins of modern "conservatism" with politicians like Goldwater and Nixon, with things really kicking off under Reagan.

tonyhart7 2y ago

I'm sorry but this is apply to all government no??? not only US

xtiansimon 2y ago

“…Trump is sending a deliberate message…” Let’s not ignore the obvious—He doesn’t seem interested in government or leadership, but he is interested in power. If his long arms can take something away, then you must make treaty and negotiate to get it back. And it goes the other way, if China is upset about the service, he can turn it off and see what leverage or opening that gives him in negotiations. I see these moves as distraction, and power play. It’s difficult to see any deliberation in service of values.

hackyhacky 2y ago

> The U.S. is happy to screw themselves in the process of screwing you. Don't forget that Trump also hates environmentalism in any form. Air quality metrics would acknowledge that pollution exists, which contradicts his opinions.

leereeves 2y ago
I'm curious, is there any evidence that Trump ordered this? We should also consider the possibility that this is malicious compliance by people trying to embarrass Trump.
- hackyhacky 2y ago
  > I'm curious, is there any evidence that Trump ordered this? Trump is the chief executive of the United States. Either he ordered, or he hired some who ordered it. That's how it works. > We should also consider the possibility that this is malicious compliance by people trying to embarrass Trump. How much does Trump pay you to say such things?

svilen_dobrev 2y ago

> happy to screw themselves in the process of screwing you heh. There is some region here (Shopsko), with somewhat weirdo's population, and they do have such a saying: "i will burn my house if that would burn my neighbour's shed" interesting..

FireBeyond 2y ago
"A Republican would happily eat dog shit if he thought a Liberal would have to smell his breath."

swat535 2y ago

Assuming the U.S ends up losing its grip on international relations in the next 4 years, or perhaps 8 if the Republicans are nominated again (something that is certainly possible), who do you think is best positioned to steal the crown? France? Germany? China? Israel?.. Additionally, as a Canadian, I wonder what will happen to us (and I suspect Mexicans are in a similar position) given our undeniable reliance on the United States. Canada, in its current political and economic climate, is not in a strong position, and right wing extremism has been on the rise. Some people are even literally advocating for _merging_ with the United States. While I think that is unlikely, I do wonder what our future will hold? I personally don't know how to feel about the future.