4 ms·

Yes, but sometimes the actions of the liberal western democracies aren't always so worthy.

by hnhg 14y ago

gadders 14y ago
Yes, they're not perfect by any means, but they are an order of magnitude better.
- retrogradeorbit 14y ago
  I disagree. China employs cheque book diplomacy. The US employs military force diplomacy. I don't know which country you come from, but I know that down here in Australia, we are geographically connected to Asia. A very large proportion of our population is of Asian heritage. Chinese is now the second most spoken language in Australia (but still a minor percentage). Our last Prime Minister spoke it fluently. And the sentiment of the average Australian is quite different to your perspective. We haven't been fed endless reams of US propaganda but we've seen clearly what is happening in the US. The crackdown of occupy movements. The NDAA. HR 347. Obama's kill list. Al Alwaki. His 16 year old son. The comments about Julian Assange. The treatment of Bradley Manning. I can go on and on and on. But its off topic. OK. So China is a big, bad, mean, corrupt, communist regime. But they are actually paying our bills. They are putting up real money and providing real investment. We didn't sail through the GFC v1 in 2008 because the US graciously helped us. It was China. It doesn't really matter if I'm wrong or right. I'm just pointing out that the perspective from here is very different to the perspective you may have.
  - gadders 14y ago
    For the record, I'm English. I don't think you can compare the crackdown on the Occupy movements to what happens to people like Ai Weiwei. We had our own Occupy movement which was moved on, but that had as much to do with drunkeness, drug taking and defecating in St Pauls Cathedral as it did with political oppression. I agree China is a major financial power now, but just because they have money it doesn't stop them being just as unethical and repressive as before.
  - taligent 14y ago
    Also as an Australian. Yes we are geographically connected to Asia but we are not Asian and despite how many immigrants we take on we will always be a Western country aligned to UK first and US second. That isn't going to change. And nobody in Australia really cares about these fringe issues. In Melbourne our most liberal city we've had protests about Assange, Manning as well as some related to Occupy Movement. Guess what. Nobody turned up. Because at the end of the day Australia is a pragmatic country and realise that China very much sees us as a useful resource partner whilst the US sees us as a useful ally.
    - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
      > a Western country aligned to UK first and US second I'm glad we agree. That was my point when I earlier wrote: "And in either case we will not be falling on the China side." My subtler point is although this will happen, it will not be in our greater interest. As evidenced by this pacific cable project cancellation. > And nobody in Australia really cares about these fringe issues. In Melbourne our most liberal city we've had protests about Assange, Manning as well as some related to Occupy Movement. Guess what. Nobody turned up. That's not a good thing. Nor does it have anything to do with economic partnerships or infrastructure investments. I did say it was off topic.

Yes, but sometimes the actions of the liberal western democracies aren't always so worthy.

by hnhg 14y ago

Yes, but sometimes the actions of the liberal western democracies aren't always so worthy.

gadders 14y ago

Yes, they're not perfect by any means, but they are an order of magnitude better.

retrogradeorbit 14y ago
I disagree. China employs cheque book diplomacy. The US employs military force diplomacy. I don't know which country you come from, but I know that down here in Australia, we are geographically connected to Asia. A very large proportion of our population is of Asian heritage. Chinese is now the second most spoken language in Australia (but still a minor percentage). Our last Prime Minister spoke it fluently. And the sentiment of the average Australian is quite different to your perspective. We haven't been fed endless reams of US propaganda but we've seen clearly what is happening in the US. The crackdown of occupy movements. The NDAA. HR 347. Obama's kill list. Al Alwaki. His 16 year old son. The comments about Julian Assange. The treatment of Bradley Manning. I can go on and on and on. But its off topic. OK. So China is a big, bad, mean, corrupt, communist regime. But they are actually paying our bills. They are putting up real money and providing real investment. We didn't sail through the GFC v1 in 2008 because the US graciously helped us. It was China. It doesn't really matter if I'm wrong or right. I'm just pointing out that the perspective from here is very different to the perspective you may have.
- gadders 14y ago
  For the record, I'm English. I don't think you can compare the crackdown on the Occupy movements to what happens to people like Ai Weiwei. We had our own Occupy movement which was moved on, but that had as much to do with drunkeness, drug taking and defecating in St Pauls Cathedral as it did with political oppression. I agree China is a major financial power now, but just because they have money it doesn't stop them being just as unethical and repressive as before.
- taligent 14y ago
  Also as an Australian. Yes we are geographically connected to Asia but we are not Asian and despite how many immigrants we take on we will always be a Western country aligned to UK first and US second. That isn't going to change. And nobody in Australia really cares about these fringe issues. In Melbourne our most liberal city we've had protests about Assange, Manning as well as some related to Occupy Movement. Guess what. Nobody turned up. Because at the end of the day Australia is a pragmatic country and realise that China very much sees us as a useful resource partner whilst the US sees us as a useful ally.
  - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
    > a Western country aligned to UK first and US second I'm glad we agree. That was my point when I earlier wrote: "And in either case we will not be falling on the China side." My subtler point is although this will happen, it will not be in our greater interest. As evidenced by this pacific cable project cancellation. > And nobody in Australia really cares about these fringe issues. In Melbourne our most liberal city we've had protests about Assange, Manning as well as some related to Occupy Movement. Guess what. Nobody turned up. That's not a good thing. Nor does it have anything to do with economic partnerships or infrastructure investments. I did say it was off topic.