3 ms·

There’s no point in disappearing iMessages when they drop down to SMS to talk to dumb phones (eg android) since the telco is mandated to store them unencrypted

There’s no point in disappearing iMessages when they drop down to SMS to talk to dumb phones (eg android) since the telco is mandated to store them unencrypted for law enforcement.

mort96 2y ago
How does this make sense? Dropping down to SMS is not something that happens transparently, the user is made aware of whether they're sending an iMessage or an SMS. Disappearing messages would obviously only be available when sending an iMessage. This argument is 1 tiny step away from, "there's no point in encryption in Signal because if the Signal wants to send a message to someone not on Signal they may choose to send the message as an SMS which is not encrypted". I don't think I agree with the author that iMessage needs disappearing messages but man please make arguments which make sense!
- librasteve 2y ago
  Sorry I did not explain my argument very clearly, please allow me to elaborate... On Transparency: When you send an Apple iMessage to a non Apple device it is sent via SMS - this can be seen since the colour of the message text shows as gray (or is that green) and not blue. In many use cases, it is not sensible to check the device type of the recipient. The transition from Internet to SMS is performed transparently in that you are not aware of it until after it has been done. You are not warned or given the option to agree to this drop down. (There may be a mode for this, but I am referring to the general situation for most users). Bear in mind that as soon as the drop down to SMS occurs, the message content is sent in the clear over a telco network and that national telco's are required to store all message content for law enforcement. On Disappearance: A main benefit of having disappearing message in WhatsApp, Signal and so on - which I assume have proper E2EE (?) is that, after a while, there is no record in the cloud that can legitimately be accessed by law enforcement - even if local law requires me to give up my password. This is true for all parties to the chat - although it requires trust that a counter-party is not screen shotting away. Summary: So, the main thrust of my argument is that it would be impossible to deliver the main benefit of disappearance in iMessage since it would only be applied to some of the messages depending on the other users device. Of course, Apple could disable text messaging and they could offer the iMessage app on other devices (or allow compatible 3rd party apps). However, for Apple iMessage is a tool that suppresses the value of SMS and limits the ability of mobile network operators to extract revenue.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- crazygringo 2y ago
  (Never mind, my comment was totally wrong. Deleting to not spread misinformation. Sorry, and thanks for correcting me!)
  - ViktorRay 2y ago
    This is wrong. Before you type a message it says “iMessage” or “SMS” or “RCS” in the text field so you know what you are sending. If a message doesn’t initially go through first as iMessage then it tries to send it as SMS but you can disable the “Send as text message” in the Settings app on your phone if you don’t want your phone to do this.

There’s no point in disappearing iMessages when they drop down to SMS to talk to dumb phones (eg android) since the telco is mandated to store them unencrypted for law enforcement.

mort96 2y ago

How does this make sense? Dropping down to SMS is not something that happens transparently, the user is made aware of whether they're sending an iMessage or an SMS. Disappearing messages would obviously only be available when sending an iMessage. This argument is 1 tiny step away from, "there's no point in encryption in Signal because if the Signal wants to send a message to someone not on Signal they may choose to send the message as an SMS which is not encrypted". I don't think I agree with the author that iMessage needs disappearing messages but man please make arguments which make sense!

librasteve 2y ago
Sorry I did not explain my argument very clearly, please allow me to elaborate... On Transparency: When you send an Apple iMessage to a non Apple device it is sent via SMS - this can be seen since the colour of the message text shows as gray (or is that green) and not blue. In many use cases, it is not sensible to check the device type of the recipient. The transition from Internet to SMS is performed transparently in that you are not aware of it until after it has been done. You are not warned or given the option to agree to this drop down. (There may be a mode for this, but I am referring to the general situation for most users). Bear in mind that as soon as the drop down to SMS occurs, the message content is sent in the clear over a telco network and that national telco's are required to store all message content for law enforcement. On Disappearance: A main benefit of having disappearing message in WhatsApp, Signal and so on - which I assume have proper E2EE (?) is that, after a while, there is no record in the cloud that can legitimately be accessed by law enforcement - even if local law requires me to give up my password. This is true for all parties to the chat - although it requires trust that a counter-party is not screen shotting away. Summary: So, the main thrust of my argument is that it would be impossible to deliver the main benefit of disappearance in iMessage since it would only be applied to some of the messages depending on the other users device. Of course, Apple could disable text messaging and they could offer the iMessage app on other devices (or allow compatible 3rd party apps). However, for Apple iMessage is a tool that suppresses the value of SMS and limits the ability of mobile network operators to extract revenue.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
crazygringo 2y ago
(Never mind, my comment was totally wrong. Deleting to not spread misinformation. Sorry, and thanks for correcting me!)
- ViktorRay 2y ago
  This is wrong. Before you type a message it says “iMessage” or “SMS” or “RCS” in the text field so you know what you are sending. If a message doesn’t initially go through first as iMessage then it tries to send it as SMS but you can disable the “Send as text message” in the Settings app on your phone if you don’t want your phone to do this.