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You never form thoughts in your mind in a linguistic way? Can you read a sentence and be aware of it as a sentence in your mind, or are you unable to do that?

You never form thoughts in your mind in a linguistic way? Can you read a sentence and be aware of it as a sentence in your mind, or are you unable to do that? I don't doubt you or anything like that, just very curious. As someone with a very strong internal monologue, it's hard for me to imagine not having one.

PeterStuer 2y ago
For me it has linguistics components for sure, but it is many in parallel and a lot less 'linear'. Where inner language most certainly comes into play is in the 'output' phase, be it spoken or written, as serialization is required there, but to be honest that often feels like a projection or even a reconstruction with an inherrent sense of loss as the inner is so much richer and nuanced. That is not to say linearization has no merits. Even if it loses so much it forces consistency and rigor in the lower dimensional reasoning.
- kennysoona 2y ago
  If you were in a debate, and had to think through your reasoning and arguments, refining your argument, not the words you want to say but the substance of what you will say, would there be an inner voice in that situation?
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    Non-chain of thought models just "come up with" words to say. It's probably a bit like that.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      So do chain-of-thoughts. The "come up with words to say" aka. selecting the best-fitting token to continue the sequence, is more-less exactly how my inner monologue feels. It sits at the boundary of the conscious and the unconscious, and from the point of view of my own introspection, the words just appear, complete with an emotional undertone of whether they "feel right" and how much.
  - idiotsecant 2y ago
    In my case, no. There is no conscious 'refinement' of speech options like a Disco Elysium scene or something like that. I mostly just say what I think. There is definitely some impulse control type function to keep me from saying, for example, offensive things, but it's not in the form of myself telling myself 'dont say this thing'. It's usually in the form of an intrusive memory of a facial expression or negative emotion that I associate with that branch of conversation, if that makes sense? Same end, I think, just without a verbal component. I have moderate inattentive type ADHD that manifests as me being hyper focused on specific sometimes minor things and failing to effectively plan larger picture things and often results in poor executive function outcomes. Maybe that's part of it.
    - kennysoona 2y ago
      Interesting. Thanks for your answer. For what it's worth I likely have the same type of ADHD but also have a strong inner monologue.
  - PeterStuer 2y ago
    Best I can put it not one but many (not voices but) narratives at once, and shared with stuff that is not linguistic, but more like analogue waves of concept activation. In a fast debate you have no time for inner single dimension explicit reasoning. It flows more directly. Compare it to running on uneven terrain. Somehow decisions are being made where to put the next foot, but most of the time not after an introspective deliberation (although these would occur sometimes in e.g. very tricky rock climbing moves). The steering of where to go occurs at a much higher level, and the steps flow from higher level coarse grained directions. Now in hindsight you can go back and analyze a recording or memory of the debate and see how it all makes sense as if it was rationally reasoned at every step of the way, but during the debate it most certainly is not an "inner voice", homunculus reasoning before consciously uttering the next phrase.
    - kennysoona 2y ago
      Thank you for answering. I can't wait to this stuff starts to get examined in more detail and more experiences shared, I think we are only at the tip of the iceberg.
idiotsecant 2y ago
No. I don't think in 'first person' words at all. I might consciously compose a phrase if I'm doing something like writing a poem, which is more akin to arranging a puzzle or something or I might recall words of a conversation someone said to me and i do think of song lyrics if I have a song in my head, but there's no voice in my head and it's absolutely baffling to me to imagine otherwise, as I imagine it is for other people to imagine my situation. When I read a sentence in a book I don't hear any kind of narration or anything, but I do assemble a 'scene' of images, sounds, facial expressions, motions, etc. not like a movie, but more like a series of small related ideas if that makes sense? I find that I understand dialogue and characters in books much better when I listen to an audiobook than when I read, not sure if that's related or not. I am a relatively intelligent successful professional, but I wonder sometimes if I am missing some processing hardware other people have access to.
- kennysoona 2y ago
  Not missing hardware, maybe just different. Those of us with an internal monologue will still say there is thinking that happens before that is voiced, so maybe you're still thinking, maybe the same hardware for an internal monologue is there, I guess, but it just isn't being voiced maybe? It doesn't sound like you are missing anything important, given you are still able to reason just fine. Anyway thank you for answering!

PeterStuer 2y ago

For me it has linguistics components for sure, but it is many in parallel and a lot less 'linear'. Where inner language most certainly comes into play is in the 'output' phase, be it spoken or written, as serialization is required there, but to be honest that often feels like a projection or even a reconstruction with an inherrent sense of loss as the inner is so much richer and nuanced. That is not to say linearization has no merits. Even if it loses so much it forces consistency and rigor in the lower dimensional reasoning.

kennysoona 2y ago
If you were in a debate, and had to think through your reasoning and arguments, refining your argument, not the words you want to say but the substance of what you will say, would there be an inner voice in that situation?
- HPsquared 2y ago
  Non-chain of thought models just "come up with" words to say. It's probably a bit like that.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    So do chain-of-thoughts. The "come up with words to say" aka. selecting the best-fitting token to continue the sequence, is more-less exactly how my inner monologue feels. It sits at the boundary of the conscious and the unconscious, and from the point of view of my own introspection, the words just appear, complete with an emotional undertone of whether they "feel right" and how much.
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  In my case, no. There is no conscious 'refinement' of speech options like a Disco Elysium scene or something like that. I mostly just say what I think. There is definitely some impulse control type function to keep me from saying, for example, offensive things, but it's not in the form of myself telling myself 'dont say this thing'. It's usually in the form of an intrusive memory of a facial expression or negative emotion that I associate with that branch of conversation, if that makes sense? Same end, I think, just without a verbal component. I have moderate inattentive type ADHD that manifests as me being hyper focused on specific sometimes minor things and failing to effectively plan larger picture things and often results in poor executive function outcomes. Maybe that's part of it.
  - kennysoona 2y ago
    Interesting. Thanks for your answer. For what it's worth I likely have the same type of ADHD but also have a strong inner monologue.
- PeterStuer 2y ago
  Best I can put it not one but many (not voices but) narratives at once, and shared with stuff that is not linguistic, but more like analogue waves of concept activation. In a fast debate you have no time for inner single dimension explicit reasoning. It flows more directly. Compare it to running on uneven terrain. Somehow decisions are being made where to put the next foot, but most of the time not after an introspective deliberation (although these would occur sometimes in e.g. very tricky rock climbing moves). The steering of where to go occurs at a much higher level, and the steps flow from higher level coarse grained directions. Now in hindsight you can go back and analyze a recording or memory of the debate and see how it all makes sense as if it was rationally reasoned at every step of the way, but during the debate it most certainly is not an "inner voice", homunculus reasoning before consciously uttering the next phrase.
  - kennysoona 2y ago
    Thank you for answering. I can't wait to this stuff starts to get examined in more detail and more experiences shared, I think we are only at the tip of the iceberg.

idiotsecant 2y ago

No. I don't think in 'first person' words at all. I might consciously compose a phrase if I'm doing something like writing a poem, which is more akin to arranging a puzzle or something or I might recall words of a conversation someone said to me and i do think of song lyrics if I have a song in my head, but there's no voice in my head and it's absolutely baffling to me to imagine otherwise, as I imagine it is for other people to imagine my situation. When I read a sentence in a book I don't hear any kind of narration or anything, but I do assemble a 'scene' of images, sounds, facial expressions, motions, etc. not like a movie, but more like a series of small related ideas if that makes sense? I find that I understand dialogue and characters in books much better when I listen to an audiobook than when I read, not sure if that's related or not. I am a relatively intelligent successful professional, but I wonder sometimes if I am missing some processing hardware other people have access to.

kennysoona 2y ago
Not missing hardware, maybe just different. Those of us with an internal monologue will still say there is thinking that happens before that is voiced, so maybe you're still thinking, maybe the same hardware for an internal monologue is there, I guess, but it just isn't being voiced maybe? It doesn't sound like you are missing anything important, given you are still able to reason just fine. Anyway thank you for answering!