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In general, the principles of democracy are that the people of the nation can steer the nation towards a better place. To do so, people need access to informati

In general, the principles of democracy are that the people of the nation can steer the nation towards a better place. To do so, people need access to information, need access to information on what the state of their nation and the state of the world is. These acts that teardown the information that the US makes available, that help us shape our decision making & view of the world, are deeply horrifically un-democratic. To march us from a nation that advocates sunlight & democracy, back into the dark is horror.

bruce511 2y ago
>> In general, the principles of democracy are that the people of the nation can steer the nation Yes. >> towards a better place. Weeelll, where the population steer it to isn't really determined by any principles. Rather it goes wherever the population steers it to. Sometimes the population gets it wrong, and with open eyes pick an option that takes them to a worse place. Yes, information helps (hence campaigning) but that information has always been gate-kept. That was seen as a flaw. Turns out though information is like water; you need enough, but too much and you drown. Anti-vaxers don't exist because of a lack of information. People who voted for tarrifs don't have restricted information. People have shown over and over a willingness to vote against their own best interest, as long as you provide someone else to blame.
- tuan 2y ago
  > Turns out though information is like water; you need enough, but too much and you drown. How do we slow down or control the flow of information ? Genuine question. I'm just asking to see if there are any studies or proposals that already exist out there. I've heard people talk about education. But this seems to be part of a long term solution. How can we solve this problem now so that in the next election (next 2 or 4 years) people will not vote against their own best interests ? Convincing people to quit social medias or stopping listening to TV pundits ? So far that hasn't worked. Facebook/Tiktok just keeps growing.
  - bruce511 2y ago
    >> How do we slow down or control the flow of information ? There's no way that genie goes back into the bottle. And even if you could that's not the issue, people believe whatever they want to believe. Ultimately education is a good start but if anything US education (which of course is very democratic) is getting worse not better. Book banning and burning spring to mind. The real root of the issue is individualism over collective good. That's pretty baked into the American psyche (not to mention baked into the constitution) so no amount of education will change that. For example it's obvious that fewer guns would reduce violence- that's been shown to be true many times over. But the individual's right to bear arms is baked in and not going away. Of course this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The US acts as a counterbalance to other systems and other ways of life. It fights for women's rights in the middle east and Afghanistan. It traditionally stood up for the little guy against the neighborhood bully (think Kuwait and Iraq). The pendulum will swing, but just as the USSR exited the world stage, the USA is now doing the same. All empires rise and fall. The gaps left by USaid will be filled by others. China is already buying influence in Africa and Asia.
    - bamboozled 2y ago
      As it stand today, like as of right now, it's actually possible China is providing Urkaine with more assistance than the USA because they're not going harder on stopping them from buying drones and drone parts. Let that sink it...
  - eddythompson80 2y ago
    >> How do we slow down or control the flow of information ? It’s not a completely new problem. Voltaire wrote about this in Candide in the 1750s. I’m sure there are other (earlier or contemporary) examples that I don’t know, but Candide is the one obvious (partial) commentary on the “flood of information” phenomenon that always comes to my mind. Voltaire’s conclusion was to just ignore it. Worry about your own life. Live on a farm and work a physically exhausting job every day then spend your nights with your family and loved ones that you have no time for all the frivolous noise of news and world events that don’t affect you. When there is an actual signal among the noise, it’ll reach you and you should use your educated/good instinct that you have cultivated from the prior years when you were young and absorbing knowledge and information, and vote accordingly. Obviously this is my interpretation of the work. Also obviously Voltaire was a very vocal opponent of voting and the will of the masses to enact real political and societal change through education and general shift in social beliefs and attitudes. He was also an advocate for acceptance of others and in Candide he had the wise old man who gives the final philosophical point in the book be a Turkish Muslim man in opposition to everything Christian French people believed in the 1700s. He was also a massive racist against black Africans and didn’t even consider them humans. Soooo your mileage may vary.
- mola 2y ago
  They exist because of justified lack of trust , and by people taking advantage advantage of that lack of trust.for their own benefit. (Mis)Information is just the tool. Being the world leader in everything was whatade the US great, these sort of data networks was part of what made it great. What made it less great is the decimation of all industry except for PR,finance,services and software. Plus the fact corporates were allowed to buy politicians. This caused all the wealth to be super concentrated. The losers were gaslighted and completely lost trust in the system. Now the vultures come to finish the job. Blaming transgenders and immigrants for all the problems.
- keybored 2y ago
  > Weeelll, where the population steer it to isn't really determined by any principles. Rather it goes wherever the population steers it to. Trivially true. > Sometimes the population gets it wrong, and with open eyes pick an option that takes them to a worse place. I think any truly governing body steers the ship in more or less the direction they collectively want. I’m anti-elitist but/and I believe that the elites manage to serve their own interests successfully. You have to ask yourself if you really live in a democracy. Or if the demos is just another scapegoat when things to “bad”. But don’t worry though. These questionable anti-democratic lines of reasoning tend to fall into a contradiction sooner or later. > Yes, information helps (hence campaigning) but that information has always been gate-kept. That was seen as a flaw. Aaaannnnd you’re already there. A democracy where the information is gate-kept? By whom? It can’t be the population. Clearly there is some entity above the people. Then how the hell is that a democracy? > Turns out though information is like water; you need enough, but too much and you drown. > Anti-vaxers don't exist because of a lack of information. People who voted for tarrifs don't have restricted information. People have shown over and over a willingness to vote against their own best interest Pray tell who controls either the gatekept information or the overwhelming firehose of information? The People!? The people are so thoroughly manipulated, you lament. Well what kind of a farce of a “democracy” is one where the rich control the Media, the rich control the politicians through donations, and the rich control who even is realistically (within 99% chance) able to be voted for President of the US? The latter boils down to two people. Two people chosen by the elites. And you have the gall to blame “democracy” for pushing the Clown Button? > , as long as you provide someone else to blame. The anti-democrats are always there to blame the demos. Thank you for your service.
keybored 2y ago
The US does not live democratic principles. Not domestically and much less in interactions on the world stage.
refurb 2y ago
> These acts that teardown the information that the US makes available, that help us shape our decision making & view of the world, are deeply horrifically un-democratic. Keep in mind you’re talking about air quality sensors. Just air quality sensors. In cities with multiple air quality sensors. Let’s not go overboard

bruce511 2y ago

>> In general, the principles of democracy are that the people of the nation can steer the nation Yes. >> towards a better place. Weeelll, where the population steer it to isn't really determined by any principles. Rather it goes wherever the population steers it to. Sometimes the population gets it wrong, and with open eyes pick an option that takes them to a worse place. Yes, information helps (hence campaigning) but that information has always been gate-kept. That was seen as a flaw. Turns out though information is like water; you need enough, but too much and you drown. Anti-vaxers don't exist because of a lack of information. People who voted for tarrifs don't have restricted information. People have shown over and over a willingness to vote against their own best interest, as long as you provide someone else to blame.

tuan 2y ago
> Turns out though information is like water; you need enough, but too much and you drown. How do we slow down or control the flow of information ? Genuine question. I'm just asking to see if there are any studies or proposals that already exist out there. I've heard people talk about education. But this seems to be part of a long term solution. How can we solve this problem now so that in the next election (next 2 or 4 years) people will not vote against their own best interests ? Convincing people to quit social medias or stopping listening to TV pundits ? So far that hasn't worked. Facebook/Tiktok just keeps growing.
- bruce511 2y ago
  >> How do we slow down or control the flow of information ? There's no way that genie goes back into the bottle. And even if you could that's not the issue, people believe whatever they want to believe. Ultimately education is a good start but if anything US education (which of course is very democratic) is getting worse not better. Book banning and burning spring to mind. The real root of the issue is individualism over collective good. That's pretty baked into the American psyche (not to mention baked into the constitution) so no amount of education will change that. For example it's obvious that fewer guns would reduce violence- that's been shown to be true many times over. But the individual's right to bear arms is baked in and not going away. Of course this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The US acts as a counterbalance to other systems and other ways of life. It fights for women's rights in the middle east and Afghanistan. It traditionally stood up for the little guy against the neighborhood bully (think Kuwait and Iraq). The pendulum will swing, but just as the USSR exited the world stage, the USA is now doing the same. All empires rise and fall. The gaps left by USaid will be filled by others. China is already buying influence in Africa and Asia.
  - bamboozled 2y ago
    As it stand today, like as of right now, it's actually possible China is providing Urkaine with more assistance than the USA because they're not going harder on stopping them from buying drones and drone parts. Let that sink it...
- eddythompson80 2y ago
  >> How do we slow down or control the flow of information ? It’s not a completely new problem. Voltaire wrote about this in Candide in the 1750s. I’m sure there are other (earlier or contemporary) examples that I don’t know, but Candide is the one obvious (partial) commentary on the “flood of information” phenomenon that always comes to my mind. Voltaire’s conclusion was to just ignore it. Worry about your own life. Live on a farm and work a physically exhausting job every day then spend your nights with your family and loved ones that you have no time for all the frivolous noise of news and world events that don’t affect you. When there is an actual signal among the noise, it’ll reach you and you should use your educated/good instinct that you have cultivated from the prior years when you were young and absorbing knowledge and information, and vote accordingly. Obviously this is my interpretation of the work. Also obviously Voltaire was a very vocal opponent of voting and the will of the masses to enact real political and societal change through education and general shift in social beliefs and attitudes. He was also an advocate for acceptance of others and in Candide he had the wise old man who gives the final philosophical point in the book be a Turkish Muslim man in opposition to everything Christian French people believed in the 1700s. He was also a massive racist against black Africans and didn’t even consider them humans. Soooo your mileage may vary.
mola 2y ago
They exist because of justified lack of trust , and by people taking advantage advantage of that lack of trust.for their own benefit. (Mis)Information is just the tool. Being the world leader in everything was whatade the US great, these sort of data networks was part of what made it great. What made it less great is the decimation of all industry except for PR,finance,services and software. Plus the fact corporates were allowed to buy politicians. This caused all the wealth to be super concentrated. The losers were gaslighted and completely lost trust in the system. Now the vultures come to finish the job. Blaming transgenders and immigrants for all the problems.
keybored 2y ago
> Weeelll, where the population steer it to isn't really determined by any principles. Rather it goes wherever the population steers it to. Trivially true. > Sometimes the population gets it wrong, and with open eyes pick an option that takes them to a worse place. I think any truly governing body steers the ship in more or less the direction they collectively want. I’m anti-elitist but/and I believe that the elites manage to serve their own interests successfully. You have to ask yourself if you really live in a democracy. Or if the demos is just another scapegoat when things to “bad”. But don’t worry though. These questionable anti-democratic lines of reasoning tend to fall into a contradiction sooner or later. > Yes, information helps (hence campaigning) but that information has always been gate-kept. That was seen as a flaw. Aaaannnnd you’re already there. A democracy where the information is gate-kept? By whom? It can’t be the population. Clearly there is some entity above the people. Then how the hell is that a democracy? > Turns out though information is like water; you need enough, but too much and you drown. > Anti-vaxers don't exist because of a lack of information. People who voted for tarrifs don't have restricted information. People have shown over and over a willingness to vote against their own best interest Pray tell who controls either the gatekept information or the overwhelming firehose of information? The People!? The people are so thoroughly manipulated, you lament. Well what kind of a farce of a “democracy” is one where the rich control the Media, the rich control the politicians through donations, and the rich control who even is realistically (within 99% chance) able to be voted for President of the US? The latter boils down to two people. Two people chosen by the elites. And you have the gall to blame “democracy” for pushing the Clown Button? > , as long as you provide someone else to blame. The anti-democrats are always there to blame the demos. Thank you for your service.

keybored 2y ago

The US does not live democratic principles. Not domestically and much less in interactions on the world stage.

refurb 2y ago

> These acts that teardown the information that the US makes available, that help us shape our decision making & view of the world, are deeply horrifically un-democratic. Keep in mind you’re talking about air quality sensors. Just air quality sensors. In cities with multiple air quality sensors. Let’s not go overboard