5 ms·

Respectfully, you clearly don't know much about the history or about geopolitics if you believe such things.

by ctrlp 2y ago

panick21_ 2y ago
Its seems you have bought into the Russian propaganda about how they were victimized with NATO. The reality is Russia got everything it needed, its economy was doing comparatively well, its elites were welcome all over Europe. Europe ignored all the shade stuff they continue to do all the time. The Russian elite enriched itself buying all the luxury products of Europe and going to St.Moriz and living in London.
- ctrlp 2y ago
  I have only bought into my readings in history. The events I credit are: - The 1970s opening of China by Nixon and the documented policy goals contra the USSR. - The waning years of the Cold War when the Soviet Union was weakened and falling apart leading to 1989 and the aftermath in Eastern Europe and Russia. - The documented US policy of economic warfare against the remnant of the Soviet Union as written about by George Kennan and others that destroyed the Russian economy and handed key industries individual gangsters (the "oligarchs"). - The documented US policy of color revolutions in Ukraine to undermine democratically elected but "pro-Russian" leadership. - The placing of bioweapons labs and other military installations in Ukraine, intentionally provoking Putin and creating internal pressure on Putin vis a vis Russia's own military hawks. - Using Ukraine as a poison pawn in a documented policy to provoke Russia into an "unwinnable" war intended to bankrupt the country, isolate it via sanctions, deplete Russia's military, and ultimately, depose achieve regime change to a more pliable Western allied Russian leadership (essentially to do to Russia what was done in Ukraine). The ultimate policy goal being to "balkanize" (weaken) the Russian Federation to achieve Western dominance over Russian policy and resources. I'm not terribly concerned with whether this was sound policy or not. Or what corrupt "elites" do with their ill-gotten gains. I'm just interested in the facts of history. This doesn't say that Putin is blameless or even a "good leader". Takes that say something is 100% clearly one side's fault are just stupid. Germans may be the biggest dupes of all in this whole mess. I get that Russia has traditional regional enemies who want Europe and the US to make this about good vs evil, and Russia being a local thug antagonizing smaller countries "for no reasons whatsoever", but that's a story for children.
  - watwut 2y ago
    Duuuude, Ukraine does not need to be someones pawn to not want rule of a country like Russia. And Ukraine protests were all Ukrainians - because large mass of citizens wanted to be in a democratic pro European country. NATO was enlarging, because countries begged to be members of a nato. Russian citizens are super poor, living in a country with little to offer. Not wanting to be part of that is only natural, especially when you look like Europeans live.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    - The placing of bioweapons labs and other military installations in Ukraine, intentionally provoking Putin and creating internal pressure on Putin vis a vis Russia's own military hawks. This is literally garbage-tier Russian propaganda that has no connection to reality. We can easily test it: name one foreign military installation in Ukraine. Just one. You won't find any, because it's just not true. These claims circulate mainly on the social media, alongside conspiracy theories about the Earth being flat and vaccines causing autism. High-quality sources offer a completely different picture than the one you've gathered from low-quality sources.
    - ctrlp 2y ago
      Why were prominent US policy folks so concerned about the Ukraine biolabs? Why did the US invest hundreds of millions to build dozens of labs in Ukraine? I'll tell you what I think. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the US saw newly unemployed Soviet bioscientists as geopolitical risks under the assumption that they were actively engaged in bioweapons development under the Soviet Union and were now vulnerable to being picked up by new patrons hostile to US interests. Rather than allowing a bunch of bioweapons experts to become free agents, we built them a bunch of labs to keep them out of the hands of our enemies. What would they work on? Well, developing bioweapons is illegal, didn't you know? And the US observes all international law, didn't you know? So, instead of developing bioweapons, we'll have them develop biosafety! See how that works? But to develop biosafety we'll also need to build the unsafe things so we can build the vaccines and antidotes to the bad things. We'll never ever use those bad things, or God forbid, have bad opsec and allow them to escape one of these completely independent and in no way associated with military research labs. Never. Never. Never. That sounds like conspiracy theories. What made you even think that?

Respectfully, you clearly don't know much about the history or about geopolitics if you believe such things.

by ctrlp 2y ago

Respectfully, you clearly don't know much about the history or about geopolitics if you believe such things.

Its seems you have bought into the Russian propaganda about how they were victimized with NATO. The reality is Russia got everything it needed, its economy was doing comparatively well, its elites were welcome all over Europe. Europe ignored all the shade stuff they continue to do all the time. The Russian elite enriched itself buying all the luxury products of Europe and going to St.Moriz and living in London.

ctrlp 2y ago
I have only bought into my readings in history. The events I credit are: - The 1970s opening of China by Nixon and the documented policy goals contra the USSR. - The waning years of the Cold War when the Soviet Union was weakened and falling apart leading to 1989 and the aftermath in Eastern Europe and Russia. - The documented US policy of economic warfare against the remnant of the Soviet Union as written about by George Kennan and others that destroyed the Russian economy and handed key industries individual gangsters (the "oligarchs"). - The documented US policy of color revolutions in Ukraine to undermine democratically elected but "pro-Russian" leadership. - The placing of bioweapons labs and other military installations in Ukraine, intentionally provoking Putin and creating internal pressure on Putin vis a vis Russia's own military hawks. - Using Ukraine as a poison pawn in a documented policy to provoke Russia into an "unwinnable" war intended to bankrupt the country, isolate it via sanctions, deplete Russia's military, and ultimately, depose achieve regime change to a more pliable Western allied Russian leadership (essentially to do to Russia what was done in Ukraine). The ultimate policy goal being to "balkanize" (weaken) the Russian Federation to achieve Western dominance over Russian policy and resources. I'm not terribly concerned with whether this was sound policy or not. Or what corrupt "elites" do with their ill-gotten gains. I'm just interested in the facts of history. This doesn't say that Putin is blameless or even a "good leader". Takes that say something is 100% clearly one side's fault are just stupid. Germans may be the biggest dupes of all in this whole mess. I get that Russia has traditional regional enemies who want Europe and the US to make this about good vs evil, and Russia being a local thug antagonizing smaller countries "for no reasons whatsoever", but that's a story for children.
- watwut 2y ago
  Duuuude, Ukraine does not need to be someones pawn to not want rule of a country like Russia. And Ukraine protests were all Ukrainians - because large mass of citizens wanted to be in a democratic pro European country. NATO was enlarging, because countries begged to be members of a nato. Russian citizens are super poor, living in a country with little to offer. Not wanting to be part of that is only natural, especially when you look like Europeans live.
- mopsi 2y ago
  - The placing of bioweapons labs and other military installations in Ukraine, intentionally provoking Putin and creating internal pressure on Putin vis a vis Russia's own military hawks. This is literally garbage-tier Russian propaganda that has no connection to reality. We can easily test it: name one foreign military installation in Ukraine. Just one. You won't find any, because it's just not true. These claims circulate mainly on the social media, alongside conspiracy theories about the Earth being flat and vaccines causing autism. High-quality sources offer a completely different picture than the one you've gathered from low-quality sources.
  - ctrlp 2y ago
    Why were prominent US policy folks so concerned about the Ukraine biolabs? Why did the US invest hundreds of millions to build dozens of labs in Ukraine? I'll tell you what I think. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the US saw newly unemployed Soviet bioscientists as geopolitical risks under the assumption that they were actively engaged in bioweapons development under the Soviet Union and were now vulnerable to being picked up by new patrons hostile to US interests. Rather than allowing a bunch of bioweapons experts to become free agents, we built them a bunch of labs to keep them out of the hands of our enemies. What would they work on? Well, developing bioweapons is illegal, didn't you know? And the US observes all international law, didn't you know? So, instead of developing bioweapons, we'll have them develop biosafety! See how that works? But to develop biosafety we'll also need to build the unsafe things so we can build the vaccines and antidotes to the bad things. We'll never ever use those bad things, or God forbid, have bad opsec and allow them to escape one of these completely independent and in no way associated with military research labs. Never. Never. Never. That sounds like conspiracy theories. What made you even think that?