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>Air quality data is not a high profile valued thing. Disagree completely - saying "we had to turn off the air quality data network" is vague enough to be plau

>Air quality data is not a high profile valued thing. Disagree completely - saying "we had to turn off the air quality data network" is vague enough to be plausibly blamed on budget cuts for a non-tech-savvy audience, while still having a significant enough impact to attract coverage from outlets like the NYT. This, in turn, creates another "pro-science" talking point to rally "The Resistance".

epistasis 2y ago
Maybe to you, but not to any of the Trump voters I know. And not to a lot of other people, either. This is in the State Department, not EPA, and embassies spending resources on pollution monitoring sounds like the very epitome of government waste that DOGE is trying to eliminate. It is not a "pro-science" talking point it is actually a real pro-science without the quotation marks talking point. Science has been completely under attack for every second this administration has been in power, in every single way, from funding to scientific indpendence to censoring of words that are politically incorrect to the Trump administration. Suggesting that this is an optional high profile shut down of science rather than something completely in line with what's happening every single day is a very odd take on the matter. And as to the proof that this is not something that people really care about in a high profile way, the science rallies get about 1/10th the support of other sorts of rallies in those trying to resist Trump's changes.
- adamiscool8 2y ago
  Those most passionate about capital-S Science are often aggressively anti-Trump, making them prone to accepting reports like this uncritically. If the State Department spends a crazy sum maintaining the air quality app, questioning that expense is fair and pretending otherwise only undermines scientific credibility. This article is a "pro-science" talking point because it admits embassies were told to keep monitors running and data sharing could resume if funding returned. So at this point, there's not even necessarily a gap in the actual data. The only proof this shutdown was unavoidable comes from those who carried it out. Funny how that goes...
  - chipotle_coyote 2y ago
    Do you have a source that suggests the State Department spends a crazy sum maintaining the air quality app, or are you Just Asking Questions™? I mean, I've found those most passionate about capital-T Trump are often aggressively anti-science, making them prone to accepting transparently petty bullshit uncritically. Not that I'm saying you're doing that, of course. Although it is weird you use the phrase "pro-science talking point" as if being pro-science was a bad thing. Do you think it's a bad thing? Just asking questions.
    - adamiscool8 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - epistasis 2y ago
        That is the grant for the EPA software, not the network of embassies for adding embassy data to the EPA program. I'm not sure what maintenance you mean there, but it surely is reminiscent of "I could code Twitter in a weekend."
        adamiscool8 2y ago
        Yes, but the same contractor manages the AirNow Data Management Center [0], and according to this talk [0] DOSAir is the actual program here, and they are piggybacking the EPA AirNow data infrastructure, and per the OP they are keeping the sensors running. So I'm all the more confused about what exactly necessitates this specific State Dept-directed funding freeze that happens to impact only the network that communicates the data from embassies into AirNow, but not the data center or other data producers. [0] https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/hylton-sti-airnowtech.pdf https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/hylton-st... [1] https://youtu.be/RcdBIWdA-e4?si=PTpOEG7rFnGod7EH&t=2615 https://youtu.be/RcdBIWdA-e4?si=PTpOEG7rFnGod7EH&t=2615
        psychlops 2y ago
        The ending of that comparison is that Twitter's strength is that it takes far more effort to build it's network effect. Air quality data is easy.
lurk2 2y ago
The people relying on this data aren't even American constituents.
- genewitch 2y ago
  But it cost us at least $15,000,000, right? It's this "this is cheap compared to the value it provides" has analogs in coupon clipping shopaholics: "you don't understand, it was 50% off!" Right, but it still cost money, a significant amount. I could live forever on $15mm, and help so many people off just dividends and yeild. $15mm is a lot of money.
  - tayo42 2y ago
    People really struggle with big numbers. 15 million for the government isn't a lot of money. and even for most big businesses it isn't a lot of money. The government spends trillions every year. 15 million divided by the ~150million taxpayers in the US is ten cents per person. Do you pick up dimes off the street?
    - genewitch 2y ago
      $79.1 billion over 10 years was "wasted" as fraud and other "should not have paid", according to the Social Security administration. That's 5,273 people like me getting $15,000,000. > It's this "this is cheap compared to the value it provides" has analogs in coupon clipping shopaholics: "you don't understand, it was 50% off!" Right, but it still cost money, a significant amount. this is the main thrust. Sure, it's like a dime to the government. have you ever heard the phrase "nickel and dimed"? How many "$15 million dollar" nickels do you need to stack before it becomes a culture problem in the federal government? It's thinking like you espoused in that last sentence that lead to waste and fraud. "it's like a dime compared to our budget, what's the big deal?" there's a lot of dimes.
      - apical_dendrite 2y ago
        Social security pays out $1.5 trillion a year. If only $8 billion a year is lost to fraud, that means fraud is 0.5%. It's impossible to design a system with zero fraud, but keeping it under 0.5% is very impressive.
chasd00 2y ago
Yeah what does “air quality data network” even mean? Do they have dedicated circuits between all the consulates and then some pop somewhere all for air quality sensors? If so, then it deserves to be shutdown because that would be grossly over engineered for the task. Imagine, an entire dedicated network and all the gear and lease expense that comes with it to read some sensors from a rest api.
- defrost 2y ago
  > Do they have dedicated circuits between all the consulates Yes .. multiple parallel and redundant dedicated highly secure encrypted clean room communications between embassies and home with the bandwith for multiple high res video data, satellite feeds etc. > because that would be grossly over engineered for the task. You think US embassy networks are grossly over engineered to be resistant to Chinese, Russian, North Korean, Iranian, Isreali, spy networks? Over engineered? .. there are museums dedicated to sneaky arse spy gear, eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) > Imagine, an entire dedicated network and all the gear and lease expense ... and yet being unable to handle the tiny addition load of some once per minute analog sensor data? In real terms the air quality network costs ride for free on what already exists.
  - chasd00 2y ago
    I think a dedicated, secure blah blah network for air quality sensor data is indeed over engineered. If it rides for free in the existing infrastructure then how can it be shutdown? Or are the being dramatic as OP said and really they just turned off the api.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - defrost 2y ago
      I would guess (albeit a guess based on decades of real life experience across several countries) that the instruments are still on the roof (it costs money to remove them) the data and instrument routines are being kept up by a DoD adjacent SIGINT team that look after a forest of antenna, instruments, rack mount IT gear etc, and the data is still going back home to the US. The literal at embassy upkeep costs for these atmospheric instruments is zero given it's minor work piggybacking on required existing staffed infrastucture that's not going away. What's probably been cut is the "making it public" part that has a third party contractor take pooled embassy data and put it up on a website for all the world to see. That needn't be expensive .. but it's been cut all the same. Of course the US still runs embassy instruments, esp. in 'hostile' locations - seismic to detect tunneling, air quality to detect gassing, radiometric for nuclear hazards, network sanity and canary services to trip digital intrusion, etc. None of that is going away. > I think a dedicated, secure blah blah network for air quality sensor data is indeed over engineered. I'm sorry, are you on HN but don't actually have any IT experience? The dedicated secure high bandwidth network is for the embassy .. a literal US outpost in a foreign potentially hostile land. It's for secure comms, SCIF to SCIF comms, diplomatic communications, backup for military | intelligence usage. Air quality and other met data is a trivial low bandwidth data load that could transmit in full on a shitty low baud POTS phone .. there's no issue having an embassy SIGINT officer set and forget a pipe on the existing network infrastructure, their time is paid for, the equipment is there.

epistasis 2y ago

Maybe to you, but not to any of the Trump voters I know. And not to a lot of other people, either. This is in the State Department, not EPA, and embassies spending resources on pollution monitoring sounds like the very epitome of government waste that DOGE is trying to eliminate. It is not a "pro-science" talking point it is actually a real pro-science without the quotation marks talking point. Science has been completely under attack for every second this administration has been in power, in every single way, from funding to scientific indpendence to censoring of words that are politically incorrect to the Trump administration. Suggesting that this is an optional high profile shut down of science rather than something completely in line with what's happening every single day is a very odd take on the matter. And as to the proof that this is not something that people really care about in a high profile way, the science rallies get about 1/10th the support of other sorts of rallies in those trying to resist Trump's changes.

adamiscool8 2y ago
Those most passionate about capital-S Science are often aggressively anti-Trump, making them prone to accepting reports like this uncritically. If the State Department spends a crazy sum maintaining the air quality app, questioning that expense is fair and pretending otherwise only undermines scientific credibility. This article is a "pro-science" talking point because it admits embassies were told to keep monitors running and data sharing could resume if funding returned. So at this point, there's not even necessarily a gap in the actual data. The only proof this shutdown was unavoidable comes from those who carried it out. Funny how that goes...
- chipotle_coyote 2y ago
  Do you have a source that suggests the State Department spends a crazy sum maintaining the air quality app, or are you Just Asking Questions™? I mean, I've found those most passionate about capital-T Trump are often aggressively anti-science, making them prone to accepting transparently petty bullshit uncritically. Not that I'm saying you're doing that, of course. Although it is weird you use the phrase "pro-science talking point" as if being pro-science was a bad thing. Do you think it's a bad thing? Just asking questions.
  - adamiscool8 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - epistasis 2y ago
      That is the grant for the EPA software, not the network of embassies for adding embassy data to the EPA program. I'm not sure what maintenance you mean there, but it surely is reminiscent of "I could code Twitter in a weekend."
      - adamiscool8 2y ago
        Yes, but the same contractor manages the AirNow Data Management Center [0], and according to this talk [0] DOSAir is the actual program here, and they are piggybacking the EPA AirNow data infrastructure, and per the OP they are keeping the sensors running. So I'm all the more confused about what exactly necessitates this specific State Dept-directed funding freeze that happens to impact only the network that communicates the data from embassies into AirNow, but not the data center or other data producers. [0] https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/hylton-sti-airnowtech.pdf https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/hylton-st... [1] https://youtu.be/RcdBIWdA-e4?si=PTpOEG7rFnGod7EH&t=2615 https://youtu.be/RcdBIWdA-e4?si=PTpOEG7rFnGod7EH&t=2615
      - psychlops 2y ago
        The ending of that comparison is that Twitter's strength is that it takes far more effort to build it's network effect. Air quality data is easy.

lurk2 2y ago

The people relying on this data aren't even American constituents.

genewitch 2y ago
But it cost us at least $15,000,000, right? It's this "this is cheap compared to the value it provides" has analogs in coupon clipping shopaholics: "you don't understand, it was 50% off!" Right, but it still cost money, a significant amount. I could live forever on $15mm, and help so many people off just dividends and yeild. $15mm is a lot of money.
- tayo42 2y ago
  People really struggle with big numbers. 15 million for the government isn't a lot of money. and even for most big businesses it isn't a lot of money. The government spends trillions every year. 15 million divided by the ~150million taxpayers in the US is ten cents per person. Do you pick up dimes off the street?
  - genewitch 2y ago
    $79.1 billion over 10 years was "wasted" as fraud and other "should not have paid", according to the Social Security administration. That's 5,273 people like me getting $15,000,000. > It's this "this is cheap compared to the value it provides" has analogs in coupon clipping shopaholics: "you don't understand, it was 50% off!" Right, but it still cost money, a significant amount. this is the main thrust. Sure, it's like a dime to the government. have you ever heard the phrase "nickel and dimed"? How many "$15 million dollar" nickels do you need to stack before it becomes a culture problem in the federal government? It's thinking like you espoused in that last sentence that lead to waste and fraud. "it's like a dime compared to our budget, what's the big deal?" there's a lot of dimes.
    - apical_dendrite 2y ago
      Social security pays out $1.5 trillion a year. If only $8 billion a year is lost to fraud, that means fraud is 0.5%. It's impossible to design a system with zero fraud, but keeping it under 0.5% is very impressive.

chasd00 2y ago

Yeah what does “air quality data network” even mean? Do they have dedicated circuits between all the consulates and then some pop somewhere all for air quality sensors? If so, then it deserves to be shutdown because that would be grossly over engineered for the task. Imagine, an entire dedicated network and all the gear and lease expense that comes with it to read some sensors from a rest api.

defrost 2y ago
> Do they have dedicated circuits between all the consulates Yes .. multiple parallel and redundant dedicated highly secure encrypted clean room communications between embassies and home with the bandwith for multiple high res video data, satellite feeds etc. > because that would be grossly over engineered for the task. You think US embassy networks are grossly over engineered to be resistant to Chinese, Russian, North Korean, Iranian, Isreali, spy networks? Over engineered? .. there are museums dedicated to sneaky arse spy gear, eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device) > Imagine, an entire dedicated network and all the gear and lease expense ... and yet being unable to handle the tiny addition load of some once per minute analog sensor data? In real terms the air quality network costs ride for free on what already exists.
- chasd00 2y ago
  I think a dedicated, secure blah blah network for air quality sensor data is indeed over engineered. If it rides for free in the existing infrastructure then how can it be shutdown? Or are the being dramatic as OP said and really they just turned off the api.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - defrost 2y ago
    I would guess (albeit a guess based on decades of real life experience across several countries) that the instruments are still on the roof (it costs money to remove them) the data and instrument routines are being kept up by a DoD adjacent SIGINT team that look after a forest of antenna, instruments, rack mount IT gear etc, and the data is still going back home to the US. The literal at embassy upkeep costs for these atmospheric instruments is zero given it's minor work piggybacking on required existing staffed infrastucture that's not going away. What's probably been cut is the "making it public" part that has a third party contractor take pooled embassy data and put it up on a website for all the world to see. That needn't be expensive .. but it's been cut all the same. Of course the US still runs embassy instruments, esp. in 'hostile' locations - seismic to detect tunneling, air quality to detect gassing, radiometric for nuclear hazards, network sanity and canary services to trip digital intrusion, etc. None of that is going away. > I think a dedicated, secure blah blah network for air quality sensor data is indeed over engineered. I'm sorry, are you on HN but don't actually have any IT experience? The dedicated secure high bandwidth network is for the embassy .. a literal US outpost in a foreign potentially hostile land. It's for secure comms, SCIF to SCIF comms, diplomatic communications, backup for military | intelligence usage. Air quality and other met data is a trivial low bandwidth data load that could transmit in full on a shitty low baud POTS phone .. there's no issue having an embassy SIGINT officer set and forget a pipe on the existing network infrastructure, their time is paid for, the equipment is there.