4 ms·

This sucks. The US tap cables all over the place but heaven forbid a new cable goes down with even a hint of Chinese involvement!

by lwat 14y ago

fungi 14y ago
fuckin a! just makes us (nz+aus) look like a client states. fuck the usa and their corporate self interest... run the cable to mexico. suspect this has far more to do with economic espionage then reds under the bed.
- retrogradeorbit 14y ago
  I'm Australian, and the thing is, for Australia at least, we _are_ a client state. I don't like it, but the facts are clear. Take for instance the leaked US State Department cables revealing Mark Arbib to be a US spy. The repercussions? Nothing. Nothing at all. Or look at how the vast majority of Australians want Australia to withdraw from Afghanistan. And yet both major parties support continued involvement. There was a Prime Minister who announced that he would withdraw the troops. And within weeks he was knifed in the back by his own party, and a new PM, one totally committed to US interests was installed. Or the permanent stationing of US troops in Darwin (closer to China). Or now in the last few days the revelation of plans being drawn up in secret to build a US nuclear weapons base in Perth, Western Australia. Or Abbots recent trip to kiss yankee ass. Or Gillard's address to congress earlier in the year. If you want to understand the real game of Australian politics, then you need to read Mark Latham's "The Latham Diaries". Australian politicians and media hated him for what he revealed in his diaries. He spilt the beans. All of them! Basically, any parliamentary front-bencher that voices opposition to US foreign policy will quickly be removed by their own party. At the end of the US-Sino currency wars, there will either be trading blocs, or a hot war. And in either case we will not be falling on the China side. The US is stepping up and saying to China 'hands off'. This is not about about espionage. This is about control. And resources. And regional strength. Things are going to get a lot hotter. Start digging that bunker!
  - gadders 14y ago
    "And in either case we will not be falling on the China side." Why on earth would you want to? You know they're a dictatorship with no respect for human rights?
    - yobbobandana 14y ago
      Economic incentives? China is a major trading partner for NZ at least. China overtook the United States at the end of 2008 to become New Zealand's second largest trading partner, with bilateral trade amounting to $9.4 billion in the year ended December 2009. source: http://www.nzdmo.govt.nz/publications/nzefo/2010/17.htm http://www.nzdmo.govt.nz/publications/nzefo/2010/17.htm
      - taligent 14y ago
        It's better to use the percentage to put it in perspective. China makes up 9.1% of New Zealand exports.
    - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
      But so is the US. More fascist than dictatorship. But certainly no respect for human rights. I mean, have you been asleep the last decade? They're China but with slicker PR. But even more so because Australia is a two product, two customer economy. One of those customers is China. The other is not the US. I'll let you look it up.
      - gadders 14y ago
        I don't think your comment really bares any relation to reality. The US isn't perfect, but actually has elections, an independent judiciary, doesn't lock up dissidents, doesn't make women forcibly abort their babies, etc etc.
        retrogradeorbit 14y ago
        Ok. You think China is a dictatorship. It is not. The merit of US elections needs to be demonstrated. Not much changed after the last one. Their judiciary is not 'independent'. Judges are not appointed for life so feather their post judicial nest with pro-corporate rulings. It does indeed lock up dissidents. It has the highest incarceration rate per capita of any nation. I'll give you the infanticide point. I mean does it really come down to which country is less rotten? We can be friends with both. I just don't think we'll be given the chance to.
gadders 14y ago
But surely there is a disctinction to be made between a liberal western democracy, and an oppressive one that doesn't respect human rights?
- hnhg 14y ago
  Yes, but sometimes the actions of the liberal western democracies aren't always so worthy.
  - gadders 14y ago
    Yes, they're not perfect by any means, but they are an order of magnitude better.
    - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
      I disagree. China employs cheque book diplomacy. The US employs military force diplomacy. I don't know which country you come from, but I know that down here in Australia, we are geographically connected to Asia. A very large proportion of our population is of Asian heritage. Chinese is now the second most spoken language in Australia (but still a minor percentage). Our last Prime Minister spoke it fluently. And the sentiment of the average Australian is quite different to your perspective. We haven't been fed endless reams of US propaganda but we've seen clearly what is happening in the US. The crackdown of occupy movements. The NDAA. HR 347. Obama's kill list. Al Alwaki. His 16 year old son. The comments about Julian Assange. The treatment of Bradley Manning. I can go on and on and on. But its off topic. OK. So China is a big, bad, mean, corrupt, communist regime. But they are actually paying our bills. They are putting up real money and providing real investment. We didn't sail through the GFC v1 in 2008 because the US graciously helped us. It was China. It doesn't really matter if I'm wrong or right. I'm just pointing out that the perspective from here is very different to the perspective you may have.
      - gadders 14y ago
        For the record, I'm English. I don't think you can compare the crackdown on the Occupy movements to what happens to people like Ai Weiwei. We had our own Occupy movement which was moved on, but that had as much to do with drunkeness, drug taking and defecating in St Pauls Cathedral as it did with political oppression. I agree China is a major financial power now, but just because they have money it doesn't stop them being just as unethical and repressive as before.

This sucks. The US tap cables all over the place but heaven forbid a new cable goes down with even a hint of Chinese involvement!

by lwat 14y ago

This sucks. The US tap cables all over the place but heaven forbid a new cable goes down with even a hint of Chinese involvement!

fungi 14y ago

fuckin a! just makes us (nz+aus) look like a client states. fuck the usa and their corporate self interest... run the cable to mexico. suspect this has far more to do with economic espionage then reds under the bed.

retrogradeorbit 14y ago
I'm Australian, and the thing is, for Australia at least, we _are_ a client state. I don't like it, but the facts are clear. Take for instance the leaked US State Department cables revealing Mark Arbib to be a US spy. The repercussions? Nothing. Nothing at all. Or look at how the vast majority of Australians want Australia to withdraw from Afghanistan. And yet both major parties support continued involvement. There was a Prime Minister who announced that he would withdraw the troops. And within weeks he was knifed in the back by his own party, and a new PM, one totally committed to US interests was installed. Or the permanent stationing of US troops in Darwin (closer to China). Or now in the last few days the revelation of plans being drawn up in secret to build a US nuclear weapons base in Perth, Western Australia. Or Abbots recent trip to kiss yankee ass. Or Gillard's address to congress earlier in the year. If you want to understand the real game of Australian politics, then you need to read Mark Latham's "The Latham Diaries". Australian politicians and media hated him for what he revealed in his diaries. He spilt the beans. All of them! Basically, any parliamentary front-bencher that voices opposition to US foreign policy will quickly be removed by their own party. At the end of the US-Sino currency wars, there will either be trading blocs, or a hot war. And in either case we will not be falling on the China side. The US is stepping up and saying to China 'hands off'. This is not about about espionage. This is about control. And resources. And regional strength. Things are going to get a lot hotter. Start digging that bunker!
- gadders 14y ago
  "And in either case we will not be falling on the China side." Why on earth would you want to? You know they're a dictatorship with no respect for human rights?
  - yobbobandana 14y ago
    Economic incentives? China is a major trading partner for NZ at least. China overtook the United States at the end of 2008 to become New Zealand's second largest trading partner, with bilateral trade amounting to $9.4 billion in the year ended December 2009. source: http://www.nzdmo.govt.nz/publications/nzefo/2010/17.htm http://www.nzdmo.govt.nz/publications/nzefo/2010/17.htm
    - taligent 14y ago
      It's better to use the percentage to put it in perspective. China makes up 9.1% of New Zealand exports.
  - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
    But so is the US. More fascist than dictatorship. But certainly no respect for human rights. I mean, have you been asleep the last decade? They're China but with slicker PR. But even more so because Australia is a two product, two customer economy. One of those customers is China. The other is not the US. I'll let you look it up.
    - gadders 14y ago
      I don't think your comment really bares any relation to reality. The US isn't perfect, but actually has elections, an independent judiciary, doesn't lock up dissidents, doesn't make women forcibly abort their babies, etc etc.
      - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
        Ok. You think China is a dictatorship. It is not. The merit of US elections needs to be demonstrated. Not much changed after the last one. Their judiciary is not 'independent'. Judges are not appointed for life so feather their post judicial nest with pro-corporate rulings. It does indeed lock up dissidents. It has the highest incarceration rate per capita of any nation. I'll give you the infanticide point. I mean does it really come down to which country is less rotten? We can be friends with both. I just don't think we'll be given the chance to.

gadders 14y ago

But surely there is a disctinction to be made between a liberal western democracy, and an oppressive one that doesn't respect human rights?

hnhg 14y ago
Yes, but sometimes the actions of the liberal western democracies aren't always so worthy.
- gadders 14y ago
  Yes, they're not perfect by any means, but they are an order of magnitude better.
  - retrogradeorbit 14y ago
    I disagree. China employs cheque book diplomacy. The US employs military force diplomacy. I don't know which country you come from, but I know that down here in Australia, we are geographically connected to Asia. A very large proportion of our population is of Asian heritage. Chinese is now the second most spoken language in Australia (but still a minor percentage). Our last Prime Minister spoke it fluently. And the sentiment of the average Australian is quite different to your perspective. We haven't been fed endless reams of US propaganda but we've seen clearly what is happening in the US. The crackdown of occupy movements. The NDAA. HR 347. Obama's kill list. Al Alwaki. His 16 year old son. The comments about Julian Assange. The treatment of Bradley Manning. I can go on and on and on. But its off topic. OK. So China is a big, bad, mean, corrupt, communist regime. But they are actually paying our bills. They are putting up real money and providing real investment. We didn't sail through the GFC v1 in 2008 because the US graciously helped us. It was China. It doesn't really matter if I'm wrong or right. I'm just pointing out that the perspective from here is very different to the perspective you may have.
    - gadders 14y ago
      For the record, I'm English. I don't think you can compare the crackdown on the Occupy movements to what happens to people like Ai Weiwei. We had our own Occupy movement which was moved on, but that had as much to do with drunkeness, drug taking and defecating in St Pauls Cathedral as it did with political oppression. I agree China is a major financial power now, but just because they have money it doesn't stop them being just as unethical and repressive as before.