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People overestimate the opportunities for lawyers. If you go to Yale Law you're OK. Maybe even top 3. If you "only" go top a top 14 law school, you need to bea

People overestimate the opportunities for lawyers. If you go to Yale Law you're OK. Maybe even top 3. If you "only" go top a top 14 law school, you need to beat a lot of your classmates, there are quite large numbers of losers. If you do not go to a top 14 law school, it gets a lot worse, fast. And there's 200 law schools... People assume it works less strictly than that, but the legal job market recently changed so just doing well at a top school isn't enough anymore. In other words, the "particular type" of student is a narrower category than people think.

rprasad 14y ago
People overestimate the opportunities for Yale graduates too. I've received resume from Yale and Harvard grads for legal-related unpaid internships. The problem is not an oversupply of lawyers; there are just about enough lawyers to satisfactorily satisfy the legal needs of the market (taking attrition into account). The problem is that most lawyers are unwilling to do the solo/small-practice gig like doctors and dentists do, and consequently chase the firm and government jobs. The number of new firm and government jobs has dropped by more than half in the last 3 years, leaving a glut of "unemployed" lawyers. But that's the thing about lawyers--they're not supposed to be employed. They're "professionals", so they're supposed to be their own bosses. I wish lawyers would at least try setting up their own shingles. Most of my graduating law school class did (at least, the ones without massive loan debt), and they've all got respectable, self-supporting practices. They won't make filthy money, but they will definitely be comfortable supporting a family within the next few years.
anonlaw123 14y ago
Indeed. I did the traditional path -- Ivy League undergrad, Top 10 law school -- with the expectation of the traditional big firm job outcome. Got shut out from the big firm jobs due to a below median 1L year performance (I put in lots of effort, but it wasn't good enough). Just graduated. Hugely massive debt. Grades improved second and third years but only first year grades seem to matter very much. Law school was an epic mistake. It's also a very tracked profession -- once you're not on the BigLaw track its very difficult to ever get back on. Now the likely best-case for me in terms of my legal career is that after 10 years of working 40k-a-year public interest, i'll no longer have six figures in debt. So after 7 years of very "prestigious", expensive, and time-consuming education, and 10 years of hard work, I'll have finally broken even, and be looking forward to a flat and low income potential. That sure wasn't in the brochure.
- gritzko 14y ago
  You'd better become a carpenter! Then, there is always a chance your son will become a prophet.
  - gritzko 14y ago
    No, guys, why do you despise manual work so much?
    - anonlaw123 14y ago
      What's really funny is if i'd just worked any random job -- food service, shelf-stocker -- instead of getting all this "elite" education, my financial situation would be way better than it is now right now. And if I, say, decided I wanted to go to school, then, knowing what I know now, I could major in something serious like computer science or one of the engineering disciplines. I'm too lazy to look for a cite, but I think Peter Thiel has commented on part of the problem of the legal market being the "prestige" that is associated with being a lawyer vs other jobs, and how people are willing to make flawed financial decisions in part due to this perceived prestige.
- mayukh 14y ago
  I don't know your situation, but have you considered going to one of the developing markets in Asia? One: there's a lot of legal work flowing to that part of the world Two: As those economies grow and mature there's more room for businesses (and individuals) to need legal assistance
  - anonlaw123 14y ago
    The legal work I've seen in Asia tends to 1) involve getting a big firm job and then you can perhaps rotate into their Asia office, and 2) tends to want you have some language fluency. I'd love to go to Asia, and I'm footloose and fancy free -- nothing tying me to the States. Maybe you know something I don't -- did you have a particular market or type of position in mind? Lemme know.

rprasad 14y ago

People overestimate the opportunities for Yale graduates too. I've received resume from Yale and Harvard grads for legal-related unpaid internships. The problem is not an oversupply of lawyers; there are just about enough lawyers to satisfactorily satisfy the legal needs of the market (taking attrition into account). The problem is that most lawyers are unwilling to do the solo/small-practice gig like doctors and dentists do, and consequently chase the firm and government jobs. The number of new firm and government jobs has dropped by more than half in the last 3 years, leaving a glut of "unemployed" lawyers. But that's the thing about lawyers--they're not supposed to be employed. They're "professionals", so they're supposed to be their own bosses. I wish lawyers would at least try setting up their own shingles. Most of my graduating law school class did (at least, the ones without massive loan debt), and they've all got respectable, self-supporting practices. They won't make filthy money, but they will definitely be comfortable supporting a family within the next few years.

anonlaw123 14y ago

Indeed. I did the traditional path -- Ivy League undergrad, Top 10 law school -- with the expectation of the traditional big firm job outcome. Got shut out from the big firm jobs due to a below median 1L year performance (I put in lots of effort, but it wasn't good enough). Just graduated. Hugely massive debt. Grades improved second and third years but only first year grades seem to matter very much. Law school was an epic mistake. It's also a very tracked profession -- once you're not on the BigLaw track its very difficult to ever get back on. Now the likely best-case for me in terms of my legal career is that after 10 years of working 40k-a-year public interest, i'll no longer have six figures in debt. So after 7 years of very "prestigious", expensive, and time-consuming education, and 10 years of hard work, I'll have finally broken even, and be looking forward to a flat and low income potential. That sure wasn't in the brochure.

gritzko 14y ago
You'd better become a carpenter! Then, there is always a chance your son will become a prophet.
- gritzko 14y ago
  No, guys, why do you despise manual work so much?
  - anonlaw123 14y ago
    What's really funny is if i'd just worked any random job -- food service, shelf-stocker -- instead of getting all this "elite" education, my financial situation would be way better than it is now right now. And if I, say, decided I wanted to go to school, then, knowing what I know now, I could major in something serious like computer science or one of the engineering disciplines. I'm too lazy to look for a cite, but I think Peter Thiel has commented on part of the problem of the legal market being the "prestige" that is associated with being a lawyer vs other jobs, and how people are willing to make flawed financial decisions in part due to this perceived prestige.
mayukh 14y ago
I don't know your situation, but have you considered going to one of the developing markets in Asia? One: there's a lot of legal work flowing to that part of the world Two: As those economies grow and mature there's more room for businesses (and individuals) to need legal assistance
- anonlaw123 14y ago
  The legal work I've seen in Asia tends to 1) involve getting a big firm job and then you can perhaps rotate into their Asia office, and 2) tends to want you have some language fluency. I'd love to go to Asia, and I'm footloose and fancy free -- nothing tying me to the States. Maybe you know something I don't -- did you have a particular market or type of position in mind? Lemme know.