8 ms·

Indeed. But you can of course say "show me the court order" and defend yourself.

by ohgr 2y ago

kennysoona 2y ago
Is a court order explicitly needed in the UK to demand a key?
- blitzar 2y ago
  A warrant is required - can be issued by the Secretary of State.
- ohgr 2y ago
  Yes there has to be magistrate approval and you can challenge a notice with legal representation.
OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
Not in the UK. In fact there's precedence they can arrest you for not unlocking your devices, without a warrant[0] [0] https://www.independent.co.ug/activist-convicted-uk-terror-offence-refusing-unlock-phone/ https://www.independent.co.ug/activist-convicted-uk-terror-o...
- ohgr 2y ago
  They can arrest you for anything. I’ve been arrested twice. And questioned once. And apologised to twice.
  - 77pt77 2y ago
    apologised?! Surely you're joking! No way that really happened or it was an empty apology like. > I'm sorry you made yourself suspicious
    - Braxton1980 2y ago
      He didn't even explain why he was arrested or what he was suspected of
    - ohgr 2y ago
      First time I was arrested for being next to a fight until I was cleared of any involvement. This required some explaining and the policeman was an idiot. Second time some busybody reported to the police that I was carrying a knife. This was a Santoku knife that I'd literally bought and was still in the plastic packaging but you could see it through the plastic bag I was carrying it in. We had a bit of a laugh about it and they apologised for wasting my time. They did however arrest me so that they could do a formal search and had right to as they had reasonable suspicion I was carrying it as a weapon. I'm not bothered they were very reasonable and so was I.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - KennyBlanken 2y ago
        Nothing about either of those is reasonable. In the US both of those would have been handled with an Investigatory detention - same as being pulled over for a traffic stop. Not even remotely an arrest. > They did however arrest me so that they could do a formal search and had right to as they had reasonable suspicion I was carrying it as a weapon. What "reasonable suspicion"? They could see the "weapon" that had been reported and at that point it should have been "have a nice day" and then them trundling themselves over to whoever called it in and charged them with making a false report. I swear, UK police seem generally nicer than US cops but infinitely dumber and the shit you brittons put up with in terms of having your rights violated is astounding.
        lolinder 2y ago
        > In the US both of those would have been handled with an Investigatory detention - same as being pulled over for a traffic stop. Not even remotely an arrest. I'm not from the UK, but it seems likely that this is just a question of semantics. Many US traffic stops are far more stressful—and handled in a way that is far less conciliatory—than the "arrest" that OP describes. It doesn't sound like they were taken to a police station or even necessarily handcuffed, more just formally detained. As for US detentions: It doesn't especially matter if they're not technically "arrests" in US parlance, you're still being stopped by the police and you still can't go anywhere until they let you because there's a too-high probability that they'll find an excuse to make your life miserable if you don't cooperate.
  - ethagnawl 2y ago
    I was stopped and questioned twice within a span of about ten minutes while walking around near Parliament in the middle of the night because someone _supposedly_ called in some sort of a threat. I was severely jetlagged and had never been to London before, so I figured it wouldn't be any different than walking around NYC but that may have been naive on my part.
    - Reason077 2y ago
      You can walk around 99.9% of central London at any time of night and nobody is going to raise any eyebrows no matter how jet-lagged you look. But there's always a chance you're going to attract some attention outside Parliament, or certain embassies, especially if there's an "elevated threat level" or whatever.
gambiting 2y ago
If you are stopped at the border then you don't have such a right. British border force can just demand you give them keys to all your devices and hold them for 7 days, no court order needed. Watch this if you're curious how that looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=991kRp8KUmo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=991kRp8KUmo
- lucb1e 2y ago
  The part that stood out to me, copying from the automatic transcript: > they're sitting there with these like blank A4 Bits of Paper writing down everything I'm telling them like you know bits of interest and it's exactly the same thing the Russians did when they interrogated me [...] to be honest interactions with the Russians have been pretty much the same as inter with the British government I didn't do my research before going to the UK for the first time two months ago and just went with my gut feeling, that is, deleting files from my phone that I don't want to end up in a government system through Cellebrite's "accelerated justice" or whatnot. Never done this for any other country before (I cross borders on a weekly basis). Seeing this video and the Ugandan article from the sibling comment, that was definitely the right move
  - Marsymars 2y ago
    I don’t know of any country where border guards don’t have the authority to seize your device if you’re trying to cross. I just use devices with ephemeral storage for crossing borders to save myself from having to do any research on any particular country’s device privacy practices.
    - lucb1e 2y ago
      Then I'm not sure what we're criticizing China for, if no country has such fundamental rights for the people under its control. The warrant system exists for a reason. I'm not more likely to be carrying something illegal when going between countries than within the jurisdiction where my registered place of residence is; less if anything because there might be spot checking indeed
  - 2y ago

Indeed. But you can of course say "show me the court order" and defend yourself.

by ohgr 2y ago

Indeed. But you can of course say "show me the court order" and defend yourself.

kennysoona 2y ago

Is a court order explicitly needed in the UK to demand a key?

blitzar 2y ago
A warrant is required - can be issued by the Secretary of State.
ohgr 2y ago
Yes there has to be magistrate approval and you can challenge a notice with legal representation.

OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago

Not in the UK. In fact there's precedence they can arrest you for not unlocking your devices, without a warrant[0] [0] https://www.independent.co.ug/activist-convicted-uk-terror-offence-refusing-unlock-phone/ https://www.independent.co.ug/activist-convicted-uk-terror-o...

ohgr 2y ago
They can arrest you for anything. I’ve been arrested twice. And questioned once. And apologised to twice.
- 77pt77 2y ago
  apologised?! Surely you're joking! No way that really happened or it was an empty apology like. > I'm sorry you made yourself suspicious
  - Braxton1980 2y ago
    He didn't even explain why he was arrested or what he was suspected of
  - ohgr 2y ago
    First time I was arrested for being next to a fight until I was cleared of any involvement. This required some explaining and the policeman was an idiot. Second time some busybody reported to the police that I was carrying a knife. This was a Santoku knife that I'd literally bought and was still in the plastic packaging but you could see it through the plastic bag I was carrying it in. We had a bit of a laugh about it and they apologised for wasting my time. They did however arrest me so that they could do a formal search and had right to as they had reasonable suspicion I was carrying it as a weapon. I'm not bothered they were very reasonable and so was I.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - KennyBlanken 2y ago
      Nothing about either of those is reasonable. In the US both of those would have been handled with an Investigatory detention - same as being pulled over for a traffic stop. Not even remotely an arrest. > They did however arrest me so that they could do a formal search and had right to as they had reasonable suspicion I was carrying it as a weapon. What "reasonable suspicion"? They could see the "weapon" that had been reported and at that point it should have been "have a nice day" and then them trundling themselves over to whoever called it in and charged them with making a false report. I swear, UK police seem generally nicer than US cops but infinitely dumber and the shit you brittons put up with in terms of having your rights violated is astounding.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        > In the US both of those would have been handled with an Investigatory detention - same as being pulled over for a traffic stop. Not even remotely an arrest. I'm not from the UK, but it seems likely that this is just a question of semantics. Many US traffic stops are far more stressful—and handled in a way that is far less conciliatory—than the "arrest" that OP describes. It doesn't sound like they were taken to a police station or even necessarily handcuffed, more just formally detained. As for US detentions: It doesn't especially matter if they're not technically "arrests" in US parlance, you're still being stopped by the police and you still can't go anywhere until they let you because there's a too-high probability that they'll find an excuse to make your life miserable if you don't cooperate.
- ethagnawl 2y ago
  I was stopped and questioned twice within a span of about ten minutes while walking around near Parliament in the middle of the night because someone _supposedly_ called in some sort of a threat. I was severely jetlagged and had never been to London before, so I figured it wouldn't be any different than walking around NYC but that may have been naive on my part.
  - Reason077 2y ago
    You can walk around 99.9% of central London at any time of night and nobody is going to raise any eyebrows no matter how jet-lagged you look. But there's always a chance you're going to attract some attention outside Parliament, or certain embassies, especially if there's an "elevated threat level" or whatever.

gambiting 2y ago

If you are stopped at the border then you don't have such a right. British border force can just demand you give them keys to all your devices and hold them for 7 days, no court order needed. Watch this if you're curious how that looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=991kRp8KUmo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=991kRp8KUmo

lucb1e 2y ago
The part that stood out to me, copying from the automatic transcript: > they're sitting there with these like blank A4 Bits of Paper writing down everything I'm telling them like you know bits of interest and it's exactly the same thing the Russians did when they interrogated me [...] to be honest interactions with the Russians have been pretty much the same as inter with the British government I didn't do my research before going to the UK for the first time two months ago and just went with my gut feeling, that is, deleting files from my phone that I don't want to end up in a government system through Cellebrite's "accelerated justice" or whatnot. Never done this for any other country before (I cross borders on a weekly basis). Seeing this video and the Ugandan article from the sibling comment, that was definitely the right move
- Marsymars 2y ago
  I don’t know of any country where border guards don’t have the authority to seize your device if you’re trying to cross. I just use devices with ephemeral storage for crossing borders to save myself from having to do any research on any particular country’s device privacy practices.
  - lucb1e 2y ago
    Then I'm not sure what we're criticizing China for, if no country has such fundamental rights for the people under its control. The warrant system exists for a reason. I'm not more likely to be carrying something illegal when going between countries than within the jurisdiction where my registered place of residence is; less if anything because there might be spot checking indeed
- 2y ago