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> It was a deliberate attempt to deprive Native Americans of their historical means of support. No, it was not. The bison population collapse was not something

> It was a deliberate attempt to deprive Native Americans of their historical means of support. No, it was not. The bison population collapse was not something expected or planned. One year the bison simply disappeared (1882). The bison ecosystem in North America was deeply unnatural. Bison are fast-replicating herbivores that don't have any natural predators! This only happened because Natives exterminated almost all the large predators. Such systems almost always go through boom-bust cycles, and that's exactly what happened. The migration patterns were disturbed by railroads, and that likely led to the spread of the Texas tick fever and anthrax among the bison population. They have around 90% death rate, and that's what caused the population collapse. However, this time the population did not recover by itself. > But if you can eliminate a major source of food for them, it's possibly even more effective. It's the same nonsense as giving smallpox-impregnated blankets used to exterminate populations.

onychomys 2y ago
Do you have any evidence for the claim that it was disease rather than the immense slaughter?
- cyberax 2y ago
  Yes. There are multiple papers written about this, here's a nice overview article: https://www.nacdnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/bisoncollapse.pdf https://www.nacdnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/bisoncoll... There was overhunting of bison, but normally overhunting leads to a gradual decline of the population (and we've seen that with overfishing). The bison near-extinction happened within _one_ year. The hunters in 1883 were waiting in vain for the bison to come.
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    from page 108: Removing 840,000 animals from 4.5 million leaves them a good 3 million short of extinct. But Texas tick fever has an 81% death rate.11 Removing 81% from 4.5 million leaves just 855,000. Shooting b 840,000 of them leaves N 15,000, which is a lot like b 25,177 (Fig. 1) Their own conclusions was that absent hunting, there would have been around 855,000 bison that year. Hunting reduced the remaining population after tick fever by 99.2%! Ignoring this is the equivalent of suggesting it was not an iceberg that sunk the titanic, but a lack of buoyancy.
    - cyberax 2y ago
      Well, yes. Hunting obviously was a part of the issue. I'm just saying that bison near-extinction was not a result of a directed action to exterminate them. It's more fair to say that bison went through a normal bust cycle and hunting prevented them from bouncing back.
      - goldencoralefan 2y ago
        You’ve shown an interesting insight: hunting could not have been only cause of the near-extinction of the buffalo. However, the way you’ve presented it is extremely misleading. It sounds like you are blaming the natives for the downfall of the buffalo. I do not believe this is what you intended to get across, since the evidence you have presented doesn’t support it. Please be careful about how you share information. It is as important as the information itself. The buffalo did not just disappear and the extermination was most definitely planned. Regardless of the logistical impossibility of that goal via hunting alone, this was the goal and the goal was achieved. This is well documented. The technicality between “preventing a bounce back” and “seeking extermination” does not matter, because the goal was extermination.
        moi2388 2y ago
        Do you have any source for this being planned to exterminate them to make it more difficult for the natives? Because it sure sounds like that wouldn’t have happened without the diseases eliminating well over 80% of the population already
        MadcapJake 2y ago
        > The US Army sanctioned and actively endorsed the wholesale slaughter of bison herds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#Government_involvement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#Government_inv...
        cyberax 2y ago
        > It sounds like you are blaming the natives for the downfall of the buffalo. Well, yeah. They created an unhealthy ecological situation with abysmal biodiversity, where one species dominated an entire ecological niche without natural predators. And it's not like the North American Natives are special. Humans have been causing large-scale extinctions since the Ice Age: https://ourworldindata.org/quaternary-megafauna-extinction https://ourworldindata.org/quaternary-megafauna-extinction > this was the goal and the goal was achieved. Care to provide the proof? Contemporary official documents, large-scale official plans, etc.?
SpicyUme 2y ago
Grizzly bears hunted bison and were present in the plains states down through Texas and into Mexico. The last Grizzly in Arizona was killed later than the last one in California.
- cyberax 2y ago
  Grizzly bears do not normally hunt healthy adult bison. They will normally hunt weakened or injured individuals, or bison calves. In general, predators need to be overwhelmingly more powerful than their prey (or use pack tactics, like lions).
pjc50 2y ago
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/05/the-buffalo-killers/482349/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/05/the-buf...

onychomys 2y ago

Do you have any evidence for the claim that it was disease rather than the immense slaughter?

cyberax 2y ago
Yes. There are multiple papers written about this, here's a nice overview article: https://www.nacdnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/bisoncollapse.pdf https://www.nacdnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/bisoncoll... There was overhunting of bison, but normally overhunting leads to a gradual decline of the population (and we've seen that with overfishing). The bison near-extinction happened within _one_ year. The hunters in 1883 were waiting in vain for the bison to come.
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  from page 108: Removing 840,000 animals from 4.5 million leaves them a good 3 million short of extinct. But Texas tick fever has an 81% death rate.11 Removing 81% from 4.5 million leaves just 855,000. Shooting b 840,000 of them leaves N 15,000, which is a lot like b 25,177 (Fig. 1) Their own conclusions was that absent hunting, there would have been around 855,000 bison that year. Hunting reduced the remaining population after tick fever by 99.2%! Ignoring this is the equivalent of suggesting it was not an iceberg that sunk the titanic, but a lack of buoyancy.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    Well, yes. Hunting obviously was a part of the issue. I'm just saying that bison near-extinction was not a result of a directed action to exterminate them. It's more fair to say that bison went through a normal bust cycle and hunting prevented them from bouncing back.
    - goldencoralefan 2y ago
      You’ve shown an interesting insight: hunting could not have been only cause of the near-extinction of the buffalo. However, the way you’ve presented it is extremely misleading. It sounds like you are blaming the natives for the downfall of the buffalo. I do not believe this is what you intended to get across, since the evidence you have presented doesn’t support it. Please be careful about how you share information. It is as important as the information itself. The buffalo did not just disappear and the extermination was most definitely planned. Regardless of the logistical impossibility of that goal via hunting alone, this was the goal and the goal was achieved. This is well documented. The technicality between “preventing a bounce back” and “seeking extermination” does not matter, because the goal was extermination.
      - moi2388 2y ago
        Do you have any source for this being planned to exterminate them to make it more difficult for the natives? Because it sure sounds like that wouldn’t have happened without the diseases eliminating well over 80% of the population already
        MadcapJake 2y ago
        > The US Army sanctioned and actively endorsed the wholesale slaughter of bison herds. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#Government_involvement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#Government_inv...
      - cyberax 2y ago
        > It sounds like you are blaming the natives for the downfall of the buffalo. Well, yeah. They created an unhealthy ecological situation with abysmal biodiversity, where one species dominated an entire ecological niche without natural predators. And it's not like the North American Natives are special. Humans have been causing large-scale extinctions since the Ice Age: https://ourworldindata.org/quaternary-megafauna-extinction https://ourworldindata.org/quaternary-megafauna-extinction > this was the goal and the goal was achieved. Care to provide the proof? Contemporary official documents, large-scale official plans, etc.?

SpicyUme 2y ago

Grizzly bears hunted bison and were present in the plains states down through Texas and into Mexico. The last Grizzly in Arizona was killed later than the last one in California.

cyberax 2y ago
Grizzly bears do not normally hunt healthy adult bison. They will normally hunt weakened or injured individuals, or bison calves. In general, predators need to be overwhelmingly more powerful than their prey (or use pack tactics, like lions).

pjc50 2y ago

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/05/the-buffalo-killers/482349/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/05/the-buf...