8 ms·

If Apple had the wherewithall, theyd give up on the UK and be done with it. Should they not prevail legally. Pipe dream, I know.

surgical_fire 2y ago
I hope for the same. Likely not for the same reason as you, but we are together in hoping.
nickthegreek 2y ago
Isnt that their soft plan? They plan on just removing the encryption for all UK users to make the point moot domestically if this gambit doesnt bare fruit. If they want to continue to push that they want it for all users globally, Apple can attempt to leave the market fully. Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government security row (bbc.com) - 1769 points , 1105 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43128253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43128253
ohgr 2y ago
I never get this perspective. Firstly we do give them a crap load of revenue. Secondly it'd probably trash any of their non US business almost immediately as people start looking for contingency in case they pull out of other countries. Thirdly they didn't pull out of China. And fourthly there are a lot of Apple engineering staff here in the UK - it'd cripple them because they won't move to the US. They will comply with the law and make a lot of noise and not a lot else.
- wil421 2y ago
  How can a company the size of Apple be crippled by employees in the UK?
  - ohgr 2y ago
    Literally a large chunk of the ARM core team are in Cambridge including most of the GPU folk and there are a ton of infra and software team in a couple of other UK locations. On top of that, a big chunk of the follow the sun on call engineering (SRE) are here that look after global infra and most of the European support operation are in Northern Ireland.
    - sureIy 2y ago
      Fruit Engineering Ltd. hires brits and contracts with offshore Apple Inc. The former does not have the keys and cannot be forced to do anything iCloud-side. It's not like corporate doesn't know all the tricks already. The only reason they need is whether the UK market is worth the hassle. That's all.
- theshackleford 2y ago
  Define a “crapload.” My understanding is that it’s actually a number that could be walked away from.
  - ohgr 2y ago
    8000 staff including very high level engineering and technical.
    - theshackleford 2y ago
      Isn't that potentially devastating to the UK, not Apple in the long run? Choosing to walk away from the market in terms of supplying goods does not mean needing to walk away from high level engineering staff. Of course, you may mean these staff are only required to service the UK market...but it sounds like you mean they are valuable to Apple, at which point I am unsure as to why they would not be retained/shifted as appropriate. Also my apologies, I assumed revenue here. Also thank you, I had not considered staffing, but it makes sense.
      - ohgr 2y ago
        Yes it’s more critical staff. And it’s more a cultural thing. I know a couple of Apple folk and they will definitely not relocate to retain the job. Especially in the current political climate. You don’t actually need as much money to survive in the UK as the US for example. So there isn’t the motivator to retain high level salaries other than luxury. It would be “no thanks” and take a 30% cut to go and work somewhere else.
        theshackleford 2y ago
        > Yes it’s more critical staff. And it’s more a cultural thing. Ah yup, that 100% makes sense and I don't know why I didnt consider it. I should no more than anyone the value of more "key staff" as it were, and the impact a shock to those kind of staff can have. > You don’t actually need as much money to survive in the UK as the US for example. So there isn’t the motivator to retain high level salaries other than luxury. I did not know this, I am over in AU and don't know that much about the UK to be honest. I've only heard things in passing about London really and even then all ive heard is "VERY EXPENSIVE, RENT BAD" so thats super interesting. > It would be “no thanks” and take a 30% cut to go and work somewhere else. Yes, good for them too. I have taken (including recently) such pay cuts because I have strong opinions of where I will work, or who I will work with. Thanks for coming back to answer my questions, I found it super informative. I didnt intend to sound aggressive in my first response so i'm glad you did!
- pertymcpert 2y ago
  The Apple engineer staff can keep their jobs.
- Lanolderen 2y ago
  The perspective is that if Apple bricks its devices for a couple days in the UK the pitchforks will come out considering they have the moral high ground and the better marketing team to pitch it to the general population. Whether it's good for a US corpo to interfere with the stable 1984 progression of the UK is another issue. If I were in a decision making position at Apple I wouldn't want to bother with this either. Just take the easy marketing W and move on. Maybe prepare a plan for market exit just in case they're not satisfied with disabling encryption and demand a global backdoor.
madeofpalk 2y ago
What happens when Australia blocks this next? Then Japan? Then Brazil? Then Sweden? Then the US?
- autoexec 2y ago
  "What if every country on Earth violated everyone's rights" isn't really much of an argument against standing up to countries that try. If that actually happens then we're all screwed anyway. Until it does actually happen, why roll over and allow it to happen without even trying?
  - matthewdgreen 2y ago
    If Apple gives in, it will certainly happen in dozens of countries. China alone would be a dealbreaker.
    - madeofpalk 2y ago
      Apple gave in to China years ago. Apple gave operation of iCloud servers to a chinese company.
      - matthewdgreen 2y ago
        According to Apple, everything in their system still works the same and they still have control of their own hardware, even if it’s in a Chinese data center. Systems like iMessage are still fully end-to-end encrypted even in China. Maybe they’re lying but it would be a huge opportunity for devastating leaks if that’s true.
        throwaway2037 2y ago
        > Systems like iMessage are still fully end-to-end encrypted even in China. I do wonder about this. How can an authoritarian state allow a (very!) large foreign corporation to operate an important communications network without data transparency to their domestic spy agency? I am not normally a tin-foil-hatter, but I just assume that the domestic spy agency has a copy of the private encryption keys used for HTTPS/TLS. Then, Apple can continue to advertise "end-to-end encrypted" (in Mainland China), but the local spies can read the comms.
inglor_cz 2y ago
I wish they placed a red warning on every phone instead: "Your government is forcing us to weaken your security because it wants to snoop on you." One of the problems of digital surveillance is that is doesn't feel intrusive, indeed it can be fully hidden from the users. With a message like this displayed every time you unlock your phone, plenty of people would start asking questions.
- cakealert 2y ago
  > red warning on every phone instead This is silly. The average consumer will just avoid Apple products.
- zimpenfish 2y ago
  > "Your government is forcing us to weaken your security because it wants to snoop on you." They're not allowed to actually tell you about the UKGOV order. That's the point of it being a secret order.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    And yet
- bigfatkitten 2y ago
  Apple can't discuss any of the details, but I'm sure they could point their customers to a person who can. "This feature is no longer available in the UK. For further information, contact: Mr Xxxxx Yyyyyy UK Home Office 02070 xxx xxx xxxxx.yyyy@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk"
  - jodrellblank 2y ago
    > Mr Xxxxx Yyyyyy *Mrs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Secretary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Secretary

surgical_fire 2y ago

I hope for the same. Likely not for the same reason as you, but we are together in hoping.

nickthegreek 2y ago

Isnt that their soft plan? They plan on just removing the encryption for all UK users to make the point moot domestically if this gambit doesnt bare fruit. If they want to continue to push that they want it for all users globally, Apple can attempt to leave the market fully. Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government security row (bbc.com) - 1769 points , 1105 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43128253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43128253

ohgr 2y ago

I never get this perspective. Firstly we do give them a crap load of revenue. Secondly it'd probably trash any of their non US business almost immediately as people start looking for contingency in case they pull out of other countries. Thirdly they didn't pull out of China. And fourthly there are a lot of Apple engineering staff here in the UK - it'd cripple them because they won't move to the US. They will comply with the law and make a lot of noise and not a lot else.

wil421 2y ago
How can a company the size of Apple be crippled by employees in the UK?
- ohgr 2y ago
  Literally a large chunk of the ARM core team are in Cambridge including most of the GPU folk and there are a ton of infra and software team in a couple of other UK locations. On top of that, a big chunk of the follow the sun on call engineering (SRE) are here that look after global infra and most of the European support operation are in Northern Ireland.
  - sureIy 2y ago
    Fruit Engineering Ltd. hires brits and contracts with offshore Apple Inc. The former does not have the keys and cannot be forced to do anything iCloud-side. It's not like corporate doesn't know all the tricks already. The only reason they need is whether the UK market is worth the hassle. That's all.
theshackleford 2y ago
Define a “crapload.” My understanding is that it’s actually a number that could be walked away from.
- ohgr 2y ago
  8000 staff including very high level engineering and technical.
  - theshackleford 2y ago
    Isn't that potentially devastating to the UK, not Apple in the long run? Choosing to walk away from the market in terms of supplying goods does not mean needing to walk away from high level engineering staff. Of course, you may mean these staff are only required to service the UK market...but it sounds like you mean they are valuable to Apple, at which point I am unsure as to why they would not be retained/shifted as appropriate. Also my apologies, I assumed revenue here. Also thank you, I had not considered staffing, but it makes sense.
    - ohgr 2y ago
      Yes it’s more critical staff. And it’s more a cultural thing. I know a couple of Apple folk and they will definitely not relocate to retain the job. Especially in the current political climate. You don’t actually need as much money to survive in the UK as the US for example. So there isn’t the motivator to retain high level salaries other than luxury. It would be “no thanks” and take a 30% cut to go and work somewhere else.
      - theshackleford 2y ago
        > Yes it’s more critical staff. And it’s more a cultural thing. Ah yup, that 100% makes sense and I don't know why I didnt consider it. I should no more than anyone the value of more "key staff" as it were, and the impact a shock to those kind of staff can have. > You don’t actually need as much money to survive in the UK as the US for example. So there isn’t the motivator to retain high level salaries other than luxury. I did not know this, I am over in AU and don't know that much about the UK to be honest. I've only heard things in passing about London really and even then all ive heard is "VERY EXPENSIVE, RENT BAD" so thats super interesting. > It would be “no thanks” and take a 30% cut to go and work somewhere else. Yes, good for them too. I have taken (including recently) such pay cuts because I have strong opinions of where I will work, or who I will work with. Thanks for coming back to answer my questions, I found it super informative. I didnt intend to sound aggressive in my first response so i'm glad you did!
pertymcpert 2y ago
The Apple engineer staff can keep their jobs.
Lanolderen 2y ago
The perspective is that if Apple bricks its devices for a couple days in the UK the pitchforks will come out considering they have the moral high ground and the better marketing team to pitch it to the general population. Whether it's good for a US corpo to interfere with the stable 1984 progression of the UK is another issue. If I were in a decision making position at Apple I wouldn't want to bother with this either. Just take the easy marketing W and move on. Maybe prepare a plan for market exit just in case they're not satisfied with disabling encryption and demand a global backdoor.

madeofpalk 2y ago

What happens when Australia blocks this next? Then Japan? Then Brazil? Then Sweden? Then the US?

autoexec 2y ago
"What if every country on Earth violated everyone's rights" isn't really much of an argument against standing up to countries that try. If that actually happens then we're all screwed anyway. Until it does actually happen, why roll over and allow it to happen without even trying?
- matthewdgreen 2y ago
  If Apple gives in, it will certainly happen in dozens of countries. China alone would be a dealbreaker.
  - madeofpalk 2y ago
    Apple gave in to China years ago. Apple gave operation of iCloud servers to a chinese company.
    - matthewdgreen 2y ago
      According to Apple, everything in their system still works the same and they still have control of their own hardware, even if it’s in a Chinese data center. Systems like iMessage are still fully end-to-end encrypted even in China. Maybe they’re lying but it would be a huge opportunity for devastating leaks if that’s true.
      - throwaway2037 2y ago
        > Systems like iMessage are still fully end-to-end encrypted even in China. I do wonder about this. How can an authoritarian state allow a (very!) large foreign corporation to operate an important communications network without data transparency to their domestic spy agency? I am not normally a tin-foil-hatter, but I just assume that the domestic spy agency has a copy of the private encryption keys used for HTTPS/TLS. Then, Apple can continue to advertise "end-to-end encrypted" (in Mainland China), but the local spies can read the comms.

inglor_cz 2y ago

I wish they placed a red warning on every phone instead: "Your government is forcing us to weaken your security because it wants to snoop on you." One of the problems of digital surveillance is that is doesn't feel intrusive, indeed it can be fully hidden from the users. With a message like this displayed every time you unlock your phone, plenty of people would start asking questions.

cakealert 2y ago
> red warning on every phone instead This is silly. The average consumer will just avoid Apple products.
zimpenfish 2y ago
> "Your government is forcing us to weaken your security because it wants to snoop on you." They're not allowed to actually tell you about the UKGOV order. That's the point of it being a secret order.
- genewitch 2y ago
  And yet
bigfatkitten 2y ago
Apple can't discuss any of the details, but I'm sure they could point their customers to a person who can. "This feature is no longer available in the UK. For further information, contact: Mr Xxxxx Yyyyyy UK Home Office 02070 xxx xxx xxxxx.yyyy@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk"
- jodrellblank 2y ago
  > Mr Xxxxx Yyyyyy *Mrs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Secretary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Secretary