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The cards hopefully shame you into changing your behavior. Your brain is what needs to be controlling you. No matter how drunk you are. EDIT: Also, being rude

The cards hopefully shame you into changing your behavior. Your brain is what needs to be controlling you. No matter how drunk you are. EDIT: Also, being rude (a word which epically understates the kind of behavior mentioned here) is not a natural force. It's a behavior, like being polite. Which your brain controls. No matter how drunk you are.

aortega 14y ago
I agree, brain control over impulses is what separate us from monkeys. But we are still monkeys, and the "creeper" guy over millenia tends to reproduce more over the polite guy, and so the creeper gen get selected and survives, that's how evolution works. It sucks that womens have a bad time at confs, but the last thing that I want is a police force caring for offended people, it's bad enough that modern confs are mostly social events about who get invited to which party, the antithesis of nerd/hacker behaviour.
- sp332 14y ago
  We don't have to wait for evolution. We have brains that can learn - during the span of our own lifetimes! I really think you didn't read the article if you think this is about being "offended". It specifically mentions Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff which you can read about in more detail here http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-defcon/ http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-...
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Okay, I'm dropping the politeness. I wish I could unilaterally remove you from the programming/hacker/humanity community. And Voxx. And anyone else who wants to act like it's unreasonable for women to want to go to a conference like this and not be, frankly, sexually molested. It's not "offended" people and to characterize it as such is so out of line, I'm not sure how best to express it. (edited to remove my less-less-politeness, I feel guilty using such language on HN)
  - aortega 14y ago
    Sorry, I did not wanted to offend you. I hope your understand that removing people with different opinions that yours will not help you solve any problems. Nevertheless, I still convinced that there is a problem, that the card solution to this problem is comically wrong, and that the "conference police" solution to this problem is the worst. EDIT: BTW, If you were sexually molested at a conf. you can tell the regular police. There are very clear laws against that behaviour that also are valid inside conferences.
    - knowtheory 14y ago
      Well, if it matters to you, I concur with drivebyacct2's desire, and I have a Y chromosome. Societies require enforcement mechanisms, or it is just base nature, red in tooth and claw. If you think there are problems that must be corrected, you too surely believe that there are mechanisms for coercing behavior. Exile is one such method that's been used in many civilizations over millenia. Edit: It's worth pointing out that your assumption that drivebyacct22 is a girl simply because he/she disagrees with you is really weird.
      - aortega 14y ago
        Yes I removed that, I wanted to make a small joke but I realized people are too serious about this issue. Yes there are mechanisms for coercing behavior, jail for example. We already have laws governing sexual misconduct much more effective than colored cards. I hope you realize the potential of abuse that a rule against "offending" people have. EDIT: I'm sure we at least agree that most of the harrasments occur under the influence of alcohol. So what about banning Alcohol in conferences, like you know, 100% of academic conferences do. Problem solved.
        drivebyacct2 14y ago
        >I realized people are too serious about this issue I have no words for you. You privileged, narrow-minded unfortunate person.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  So what you're saying here is that we shouldn't be arresting people who commit sex crimes while drunk we should be euthenizing them to remove their genes from the population?
  - aortega 14y ago
    No. There is already a solution to that problem, is called police. We don't need additional police.
    - rdl 14y ago
      At conferences and other private events, it basically goes like this: Someone behaves inappropriately. Event organizers and/or their security designees and/or venue security request that the offender leave for whatever reason. Depending on venue, level of intoxication, threat, etc., the person may be escorted off the premises (how much force can be used depends on legal situation, too). If someone is unwilling to leave, police may be called and offender charged with trespassing. Attempting to re-enter would be trespassing, and police may be called. Attempting to assault security or event staff leads to police and ambulance being called. It's pretty normal for conference venues to have their own security (for fire safety as well as physical security), and for conference organizers to have security (mainly for crowd control and access control, but also for responding to things like fires caused by cellphones...). Having a conference-affiliated security person request that you leave an event is less damaging to you than having casino security formally ban you from the premises forever, and either is better than having police come and criminal trespassing charges filed.
      - pyre 14y ago
        Some of the examples we're presented with are of physical harassment (i.e. groping). I think the implication is that the police should handle these incidences rather than trying to police them outside of the law.
        rdl 14y ago

aortega 14y ago

I agree, brain control over impulses is what separate us from monkeys. But we are still monkeys, and the "creeper" guy over millenia tends to reproduce more over the polite guy, and so the creeper gen get selected and survives, that's how evolution works. It sucks that womens have a bad time at confs, but the last thing that I want is a police force caring for offended people, it's bad enough that modern confs are mostly social events about who get invited to which party, the antithesis of nerd/hacker behaviour.

sp332 14y ago
We don't have to wait for evolution. We have brains that can learn - during the span of our own lifetimes! I really think you didn't read the article if you think this is about being "offended". It specifically mentions Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff which you can read about in more detail here http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-defcon/ http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-...
drivebyacct2 14y ago
Okay, I'm dropping the politeness. I wish I could unilaterally remove you from the programming/hacker/humanity community. And Voxx. And anyone else who wants to act like it's unreasonable for women to want to go to a conference like this and not be, frankly, sexually molested. It's not "offended" people and to characterize it as such is so out of line, I'm not sure how best to express it. (edited to remove my less-less-politeness, I feel guilty using such language on HN)
- aortega 14y ago
  Sorry, I did not wanted to offend you. I hope your understand that removing people with different opinions that yours will not help you solve any problems. Nevertheless, I still convinced that there is a problem, that the card solution to this problem is comically wrong, and that the "conference police" solution to this problem is the worst. EDIT: BTW, If you were sexually molested at a conf. you can tell the regular police. There are very clear laws against that behaviour that also are valid inside conferences.
  - knowtheory 14y ago
    Well, if it matters to you, I concur with drivebyacct2's desire, and I have a Y chromosome. Societies require enforcement mechanisms, or it is just base nature, red in tooth and claw. If you think there are problems that must be corrected, you too surely believe that there are mechanisms for coercing behavior. Exile is one such method that's been used in many civilizations over millenia. Edit: It's worth pointing out that your assumption that drivebyacct22 is a girl simply because he/she disagrees with you is really weird.
    - aortega 14y ago
      Yes I removed that, I wanted to make a small joke but I realized people are too serious about this issue. Yes there are mechanisms for coercing behavior, jail for example. We already have laws governing sexual misconduct much more effective than colored cards. I hope you realize the potential of abuse that a rule against "offending" people have. EDIT: I'm sure we at least agree that most of the harrasments occur under the influence of alcohol. So what about banning Alcohol in conferences, like you know, 100% of academic conferences do. Problem solved.
      - drivebyacct2 14y ago
        >I realized people are too serious about this issue I have no words for you. You privileged, narrow-minded unfortunate person.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
So what you're saying here is that we shouldn't be arresting people who commit sex crimes while drunk we should be euthenizing them to remove their genes from the population?
- aortega 14y ago
  No. There is already a solution to that problem, is called police. We don't need additional police.
  - rdl 14y ago
    At conferences and other private events, it basically goes like this: Someone behaves inappropriately. Event organizers and/or their security designees and/or venue security request that the offender leave for whatever reason. Depending on venue, level of intoxication, threat, etc., the person may be escorted off the premises (how much force can be used depends on legal situation, too). If someone is unwilling to leave, police may be called and offender charged with trespassing. Attempting to re-enter would be trespassing, and police may be called. Attempting to assault security or event staff leads to police and ambulance being called. It's pretty normal for conference venues to have their own security (for fire safety as well as physical security), and for conference organizers to have security (mainly for crowd control and access control, but also for responding to things like fires caused by cellphones...). Having a conference-affiliated security person request that you leave an event is less damaging to you than having casino security formally ban you from the premises forever, and either is better than having police come and criminal trespassing charges filed.
    - pyre 14y ago
      Some of the examples we're presented with are of physical harassment (i.e. groping). I think the implication is that the police should handle these incidences rather than trying to police them outside of the law.
      - rdl 14y ago