5 ms·

Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of whic

Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence therefore it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations & collisions of her friendships, or enmities. Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, Rivalship, Interest, Humour or Caprice?

eldgfipo 2y ago
The Biden/Obama administration and Europe both have their responsibility in alienating Russia. The current administration simply wants to wash its hand off of it as if their was no continuity between Trump America and Democratic America. Now the US words are meaningless.
- bell-cot 2y ago
  Words and talk are always cheap. But you seem to regard "Was Alienated by Somebody" status as license to ignore treaties and start wars. Might that same standard apply, when you don't happen to favor the aggressor over the victim?
- myvoiceismypass 2y ago
  Biden/Obama and Europe are responsible for Putin invading Ukraine?
  - vaidhy 2y ago
    Yes, if you are willing to believe Jeffery Sachs, John Mershiemer (sp?), and a large number of people.. They believe Russia was provoked into the war.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      They are a tiny fringe minority that gets humiliated whenever they try to debate actual experts. Here's Mearsheimer getting smacked down in front of a live audience by the Polish foreign minister: https://youtu.be/ivcSVG5eCeQ?t=2100 https://youtu.be/ivcSVG5eCeQ?t=2100
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
Jeremy1026 2y ago
The entire globe is intertwined. Conflict anywhere has the very real possibility of becoming conflict everywhere. It's in every countries best interest to do what they can to maintain peace, no matter how far away from home that peace is.
- regularization 2y ago
  > It's in every countries best interest to do what they can to maintain peace, no matter how far away from home that peace is. How did Victoria Nuland handing out cookies in Maidan Square as a mob overthrew the Ukraine's elected government contribute to peace?
  - matthewdgreen 2y ago
    I didn't know who that person was, so I had to go look it up. What turned up was a veritable fountain of weird foreign propaganda. Apparently a woman gave out cookies and now bots are here on HN.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      I think I heard of this before. I've seen the bots say the cookies were poisoned with democracy. Hilarious
    - regularization 2y ago
      Trump was elected to do this, so I guess "bots" means the majority of Americans who elected him. He is also surrounded by Silicon Valley money people who support this. Also tech workers who don't want neocon forever wars. (I voted not for Trump but for Jill Stein, who agreed with some of Trump's positions on the Ukraine)
      - Mr_Bees69 2y ago
        The Ukraine? The tzar's been dead for a while lol.
    - 2y ago
Mr_Bees69 2y ago
For if America maintains the defense of Europe, she gains influence upon European decision making. Our former hegemony was built upon our role as America, defender of peace and fighter for liberty. Europe's health care is built upon subsidization by American defense. That is a source of power.
throwaway48476 2y ago
Ukraine is acting as a buffer state which prevents the inevitable nuclear confrontation between Russia and the nuclear armed states in Europe. Any nuclear issue will always become a global issue. The oceans protect the US from russias military, but not its missiles.
verdverm 2y ago
ASML is European, without which, we would not have the chips in our computers. What if Europe sanctions the US? How many vital resources would we lose? The world is far more codependent than you realize
amenhotep 2y ago
The present reign of terror and international lawlessness began a few years ago. It began through unjustified interference in the internal affairs of other nations or the invasion of alien territory in violation of treaties and has now reached a stage where the very foundations of civilization are seriously threatened. The landmarks and traditions which have marked the progress of civilization toward a condition of law, order, and justice are being wiped away. Without a declaration of war and without warning or justification of any kind civilians, including women and children are being ruthlessly murdered with bombs from the air. In times of so-called peace, ships are being attacked and sunk by submarines without cause or notice. Nations are fomenting and taking sides in civil warfare in nations that have never done them any harm. Nations claiming freedom for themselves deny it to others. Innocent peoples and nations are being cruelly sacrificed to a greed for power and supremacy which is devoid of all sense of justice and humane consideration. To paraphrase a recent author, "perhaps we foresee a time when men, exultant in the technique of homicide, will rage so hotly over the world that every precious thing will be in danger, every book and picture and harmony, every treasure garnered through two millenniums, the small, the delicate, the defenseless-all will be lost or wrecked or utterly destroyed." If those things come to pass in other parts of the world, let no one imagine that America will escape, that it may expect mercy, that this Western Hemisphere will not be attacked, and that it will continue tranquilly and peacefully to carry on the ethics and the arts of civilization. If those days come, "there will be no safety by arms, no help from authority, no answer in science. The storm will rage till every flower of culture is trampled and all human beings are leveled in a vast chaos." If those days are not to come to pass- if we are to have a world in which we can breathe freely and live in amity without fear-the peace-loving nations must make a concerted effort to uphold laws and principles on which alone peace can rest secure. The peace-loving nations must make a concerted effort in opposition to those violations of treaties and those ignorings of humane instincts which today are creating a state of international anarchy and instability from which there is no escape through mere isolation or neutrality.
Erem 2y ago
The old timey grammatical construction makes me ask — is this a quote from the disgraced America First Committee, who fought tooth and nail against American involvement in WW2?
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Hey I remember when I thought like this. So what I did was use NextDNS and block every website that was invoking emotional reactions in me for 6 months. Then after 6 months I went back and looked at 'the current thing' they were pushing emotionally. And it was all idiotic because I hadn't been there as they hyped their weak justification/manufactured outrage. Then I re-started from the ground up re-building my positions. 'Europe keeps to defence policy United States setup post WW2' stopped enraging me about 'European freeloaders' when I stopped consuming manufactured outrage infomercials voluntarily. Huge FU shoutout to Instapundit who I followed post 9/11 and took advantage of that!

eldgfipo 2y ago

The Biden/Obama administration and Europe both have their responsibility in alienating Russia. The current administration simply wants to wash its hand off of it as if their was no continuity between Trump America and Democratic America. Now the US words are meaningless.

bell-cot 2y ago
Words and talk are always cheap. But you seem to regard "Was Alienated by Somebody" status as license to ignore treaties and start wars. Might that same standard apply, when you don't happen to favor the aggressor over the victim?
myvoiceismypass 2y ago
Biden/Obama and Europe are responsible for Putin invading Ukraine?
- vaidhy 2y ago
  Yes, if you are willing to believe Jeffery Sachs, John Mershiemer (sp?), and a large number of people.. They believe Russia was provoked into the war.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    They are a tiny fringe minority that gets humiliated whenever they try to debate actual experts. Here's Mearsheimer getting smacked down in front of a live audience by the Polish foreign minister: https://youtu.be/ivcSVG5eCeQ?t=2100 https://youtu.be/ivcSVG5eCeQ?t=2100
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

Jeremy1026 2y ago

The entire globe is intertwined. Conflict anywhere has the very real possibility of becoming conflict everywhere. It's in every countries best interest to do what they can to maintain peace, no matter how far away from home that peace is.

regularization 2y ago
> It's in every countries best interest to do what they can to maintain peace, no matter how far away from home that peace is. How did Victoria Nuland handing out cookies in Maidan Square as a mob overthrew the Ukraine's elected government contribute to peace?
- matthewdgreen 2y ago
  I didn't know who that person was, so I had to go look it up. What turned up was a veritable fountain of weird foreign propaganda. Apparently a woman gave out cookies and now bots are here on HN.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    I think I heard of this before. I've seen the bots say the cookies were poisoned with democracy. Hilarious
  - regularization 2y ago
    Trump was elected to do this, so I guess "bots" means the majority of Americans who elected him. He is also surrounded by Silicon Valley money people who support this. Also tech workers who don't want neocon forever wars. (I voted not for Trump but for Jill Stein, who agreed with some of Trump's positions on the Ukraine)
    - Mr_Bees69 2y ago
      The Ukraine? The tzar's been dead for a while lol.
  - 2y ago

Mr_Bees69 2y ago

For if America maintains the defense of Europe, she gains influence upon European decision making. Our former hegemony was built upon our role as America, defender of peace and fighter for liberty. Europe's health care is built upon subsidization by American defense. That is a source of power.

throwaway48476 2y ago

Ukraine is acting as a buffer state which prevents the inevitable nuclear confrontation between Russia and the nuclear armed states in Europe. Any nuclear issue will always become a global issue. The oceans protect the US from russias military, but not its missiles.

verdverm 2y ago

ASML is European, without which, we would not have the chips in our computers. What if Europe sanctions the US? How many vital resources would we lose? The world is far more codependent than you realize

amenhotep 2y ago

The present reign of terror and international lawlessness began a few years ago. It began through unjustified interference in the internal affairs of other nations or the invasion of alien territory in violation of treaties and has now reached a stage where the very foundations of civilization are seriously threatened. The landmarks and traditions which have marked the progress of civilization toward a condition of law, order, and justice are being wiped away. Without a declaration of war and without warning or justification of any kind civilians, including women and children are being ruthlessly murdered with bombs from the air. In times of so-called peace, ships are being attacked and sunk by submarines without cause or notice. Nations are fomenting and taking sides in civil warfare in nations that have never done them any harm. Nations claiming freedom for themselves deny it to others. Innocent peoples and nations are being cruelly sacrificed to a greed for power and supremacy which is devoid of all sense of justice and humane consideration. To paraphrase a recent author, "perhaps we foresee a time when men, exultant in the technique of homicide, will rage so hotly over the world that every precious thing will be in danger, every book and picture and harmony, every treasure garnered through two millenniums, the small, the delicate, the defenseless-all will be lost or wrecked or utterly destroyed." If those things come to pass in other parts of the world, let no one imagine that America will escape, that it may expect mercy, that this Western Hemisphere will not be attacked, and that it will continue tranquilly and peacefully to carry on the ethics and the arts of civilization. If those days come, "there will be no safety by arms, no help from authority, no answer in science. The storm will rage till every flower of culture is trampled and all human beings are leveled in a vast chaos." If those days are not to come to pass- if we are to have a world in which we can breathe freely and live in amity without fear-the peace-loving nations must make a concerted effort to uphold laws and principles on which alone peace can rest secure. The peace-loving nations must make a concerted effort in opposition to those violations of treaties and those ignorings of humane instincts which today are creating a state of international anarchy and instability from which there is no escape through mere isolation or neutrality.

Erem 2y ago

The old timey grammatical construction makes me ask — is this a quote from the disgraced America First Committee, who fought tooth and nail against American involvement in WW2?

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

Hey I remember when I thought like this. So what I did was use NextDNS and block every website that was invoking emotional reactions in me for 6 months. Then after 6 months I went back and looked at 'the current thing' they were pushing emotionally. And it was all idiotic because I hadn't been there as they hyped their weak justification/manufactured outrage. Then I re-started from the ground up re-building my positions. 'Europe keeps to defence policy United States setup post WW2' stopped enraging me about 'European freeloaders' when I stopped consuming manufactured outrage infomercials voluntarily. Huge FU shoutout to Instapundit who I followed post 9/11 and took advantage of that!