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The NitroVolt concept looks interesting it uses less energy than Haber-Bosch process but it's only for nitrogen not phosphorus. If you grow anything or even la

The NitroVolt concept looks interesting it uses less energy than Haber-Bosch process but it's only for nitrogen not phosphorus. If you grow anything or even lawn care you know anything with phosphorus is very expensive usually double the cost of just nitrogen. https://www.nitrovolt.com/ https://www.nitrovolt.com/

scythe 2y ago
They're not the only ones on that track: https://tsubame-bhb.co.jp/en/ https://tsubame-bhb.co.jp/en/ But I do think the name NitroVolt is a little unfortunate because there is also a much more speculative (TRL 3) methodology in development which dispenses with fuel altogether to perform the reaction: N2 + 12 OH- >> 2 NO3- + 6 H2O + 10 e- ...effectively producing nitrate directly from nitrogen with electricity. So I clicked expecting to see that, but it's still years to decades away.
- btown 2y ago
  Any links to the research here?
bluGill 2y ago
No healthy lawn needs Nitrogen or Phosphorus! People just think drug addicted monocultres are beautiful, change attitudes and the world will be better off. There are suburban lots using as much fertilizer as an entire field on a farm. A healthy lawn will have plenty of clover and other plants to fix nitrogen. People call those plants weeds, but they are not and we need to quit killing them. Rabbits peeing on your lawn will add nitrogen as well. Phosphorus is a mineral and shouldn't be going anywhere. The plants take it in, then they die and it goes right back into the soil. If you have a new house you might need some initial phosphorus treatments because developments often destroy the soil, but after a few years there will be plenty. Gardens are different. When you remove anything to eat it you take some phosphorus (and other minerals) away. If you are not returning your poop to the soil those minerals are gone. (returning poop if not done right can kill - there is good reason we have modern sanitation systems to remove human waste!) Nitrogen fixers can compete with your food plants and reduce yields by enough that you are often better off removing them from your garden and getting nitrogen otherwise. A lawn is not a garden.
amoshebb 2y ago
The emphasis on containerization and strictly using green energy makes me skeptical about the underlying technology… If this “lithium-mediated ammonia synthesis reactor” is really so much more efficient, surely incumbent nitrogen plants would be camping on the sidewalk to be first in line? Maybe it’s different elsewhere, but here farmers don’t use daily applications of small amounts of pure ammonia, they get an armada of co-op spreaders to deliver and apply dozens-hundreds of tons of dry blend in one big shot and then do nothing for months. There’s a reason production is so concentrated, and it’s not because farmers haven’t realized air is the main ingredient.
- bluGill 2y ago
  From what I can tell, the efficiency comes from logistics and not the cost. Those large plants are cheaper to run, but then you need to get that ammonia from the factory to the field. Ammonia is very toxic (your household Ammonia CONCENTRATE is 99% water! we are talking 100% ammonia here). Your truck drivers need special training to haul it, they cannot drive on some roads (tunnels). Farmers - the least safety conscience group I know of - wear gas masks and protective clothing when they work with it (they will drink roundup on a dare). Everyone in the chain of handling it needs extra safety effort. This thing is instead a box you put on the farm which means much less handling of it. It also means you can plan to have it on time (fertilizer shipments are sometimes late - when you apply notrogen matters). In short this can be more expensive than traditional processes, but has enough other benefits that people will be willing to pay that difference (after talking to their accountant).
  - amoshebb 2y ago
    so, we’re observing the same things, but drawing opposite conclusions. A box on a farm means much MORE handling of it, no? Currently no farmer I’ve met has ever handled pure ammonia, only UAN or nitrate/other dry solids. And like you said, they’d rather not. (although I also don’t know any who would drink glyphosates with how quickly they eat sprayers) How does a box help with timing? Each farm must either store enough on site for an entire application (which farmers could already do if that was worth the cost) as it’s slowly generated, or they’re constrained by daily output of the box. Late shipments are bad, but a renewable only box running out on a cloudy week? No angry phone call to the coop fixes this. Spreading the cost to centrally produce and store lots over many farms/industries seems optimal when one needs infrequent but huge quantities of anything.

scythe 2y ago

They're not the only ones on that track: https://tsubame-bhb.co.jp/en/ https://tsubame-bhb.co.jp/en/ But I do think the name NitroVolt is a little unfortunate because there is also a much more speculative (TRL 3) methodology in development which dispenses with fuel altogether to perform the reaction: N2 + 12 OH- >> 2 NO3- + 6 H2O + 10 e- ...effectively producing nitrate directly from nitrogen with electricity. So I clicked expecting to see that, but it's still years to decades away.

btown 2y ago
Any links to the research here?

bluGill 2y ago

No healthy lawn needs Nitrogen or Phosphorus! People just think drug addicted monocultres are beautiful, change attitudes and the world will be better off. There are suburban lots using as much fertilizer as an entire field on a farm. A healthy lawn will have plenty of clover and other plants to fix nitrogen. People call those plants weeds, but they are not and we need to quit killing them. Rabbits peeing on your lawn will add nitrogen as well. Phosphorus is a mineral and shouldn't be going anywhere. The plants take it in, then they die and it goes right back into the soil. If you have a new house you might need some initial phosphorus treatments because developments often destroy the soil, but after a few years there will be plenty. Gardens are different. When you remove anything to eat it you take some phosphorus (and other minerals) away. If you are not returning your poop to the soil those minerals are gone. (returning poop if not done right can kill - there is good reason we have modern sanitation systems to remove human waste!) Nitrogen fixers can compete with your food plants and reduce yields by enough that you are often better off removing them from your garden and getting nitrogen otherwise. A lawn is not a garden.

amoshebb 2y ago

The emphasis on containerization and strictly using green energy makes me skeptical about the underlying technology… If this “lithium-mediated ammonia synthesis reactor” is really so much more efficient, surely incumbent nitrogen plants would be camping on the sidewalk to be first in line? Maybe it’s different elsewhere, but here farmers don’t use daily applications of small amounts of pure ammonia, they get an armada of co-op spreaders to deliver and apply dozens-hundreds of tons of dry blend in one big shot and then do nothing for months. There’s a reason production is so concentrated, and it’s not because farmers haven’t realized air is the main ingredient.

bluGill 2y ago
From what I can tell, the efficiency comes from logistics and not the cost. Those large plants are cheaper to run, but then you need to get that ammonia from the factory to the field. Ammonia is very toxic (your household Ammonia CONCENTRATE is 99% water! we are talking 100% ammonia here). Your truck drivers need special training to haul it, they cannot drive on some roads (tunnels). Farmers - the least safety conscience group I know of - wear gas masks and protective clothing when they work with it (they will drink roundup on a dare). Everyone in the chain of handling it needs extra safety effort. This thing is instead a box you put on the farm which means much less handling of it. It also means you can plan to have it on time (fertilizer shipments are sometimes late - when you apply notrogen matters). In short this can be more expensive than traditional processes, but has enough other benefits that people will be willing to pay that difference (after talking to their accountant).
- amoshebb 2y ago
  so, we’re observing the same things, but drawing opposite conclusions. A box on a farm means much MORE handling of it, no? Currently no farmer I’ve met has ever handled pure ammonia, only UAN or nitrate/other dry solids. And like you said, they’d rather not. (although I also don’t know any who would drink glyphosates with how quickly they eat sprayers) How does a box help with timing? Each farm must either store enough on site for an entire application (which farmers could already do if that was worth the cost) as it’s slowly generated, or they’re constrained by daily output of the box. Late shipments are bad, but a renewable only box running out on a cloudy week? No angry phone call to the coop fixes this. Spreading the cost to centrally produce and store lots over many farms/industries seems optimal when one needs infrequent but huge quantities of anything.