5 ms·

Jamming: Polish researchers suspect GPS jammers on ships in the Baltic Sea

54 points by nabla9 2y ago

throw_a_grenade 2y ago
https://archive.is/z4qWR https://archive.is/z4qWR
tw1712316 2y ago
"The authors therefore see an urgent need for a special GNSS interference monitoring network along the Baltic Sea coast." The Poles want the EU to spend more on the MIC. That is not a surprise. All while Russia is unable to even take the whole of Donetsk and Zaphorizia. The "Russia is weak" and the "Russia will go to Portugal" narratives happily coexist in the European press.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > The "Russia is weak" and the "Russia will go to Portugal" narratives happily coexist in the European press. Just because Russia cannot do some things, that doesn't mean they cannot do others and be annoying, like disrupting the airline industry: * https://www.wingsmagazine.com/estonia-gps-interference-2/ https://www.wingsmagazine.com/estonia-gps-interference-2/ * https://www.gpsworld.com/faa-and-nawcad-advance-crpa-approval-process/ https://www.gpsworld.com/faa-and-nawcad-advance-crpa-approva... (Or interfering with other countries' elections.)
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > The "Russia is weak" and the "Russia will go to Portugal" narratives happily coexist in the European press. Weak now and weak forever are not the same thing. Arnold Schwarzenegger was once a baby, but it would be silly to conclude that means he can't lift 50 pounds today. Putin's current territorial ambitions in Ukraine can be traced back to the West's almost complete inaction when he invaded Georgia, Donetsk, Luhansk, and Crimea. A victory in Ukraine would be likely to reinforce the approach as a functional one.
  - tw19238129 2y ago
    There is a third narrative: "The sanctions will prevent Russia from getting strong." All narratives can be used when appropriate, by the same media outlet and sometimes by the same journalist. (The issue with Georgia and Ukraine was primarily NATO membership, which does not apply to Poland or the Baltic states.)
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      All of these narratives are logically consistent. "Russia is currently weakened by their war of attrition in Ukraine. Allowing them to win in Ukraine will embolden their territorial ambitions and permit them to rearm. As such, sanctions and aid to Ukraine must continue, to ensure they receive a solid lesson that will prevent them from future ambitions on EU territory."
- praptak 2y ago
  Painting things as "narratives" omits the fact that there are, well, some facts underneath the "narratives". Either someone jams GPS signal or they don't. The researches have some evidence that the former is true, so we need to gather more data (or decide that GPS jamming is not a problem - the less likely option).
diggan 2y ago
There is a cool webapp for visualizing current (inferred) GPS jamming around the world, here centered on the Baltic Sea: https://gpsjam.org/?lat=58.31474&lon=22.53044&z=4.9&date=2025-03-04 https://gpsjam.org/?lat=58.31474&lon=22.53044&z=4.9&date=202... Seems at least according to that, there is plenty of +10% interference of GPS in the east and south of the Baltic Sea.
Havoc 2y ago
Real „this is why we can’t have nice things“ situation. Reliable navigation is such a pure net positive for humanity.
throw0101d 2y ago
There's been a consistent call by many people that there needs to be a diversity of options for navigation and timing: * https://rntfnd.org/2025/02/04/pnt-gps-critical-issue-for-new-administration-and-congress/ https://rntfnd.org/2025/02/04/pnt-gps-critical-issue-for-new... China has GNSS (BeiDou, plus plans for LEO) plus terrestrial navigation (eLoran) plus a fibre-based network for accurate timing: * https://rntfnd.org/2024/10/03/china-completes-national-eloran-network-the-paper/ https://rntfnd.org/2024/10/03/china-completes-national-elora... * https://rntfnd.org/2024/03/01/patton-read-their-book-chinas-pnt-projects-and-ambitions/ https://rntfnd.org/2024/03/01/patton-read-their-book-chinas-... * https://rntfnd.org/2024/11/29/china-announces-plan-to-further-shade-gps-dominate-global-pnt/ https://rntfnd.org/2024/11/29/china-announces-plan-to-furthe... Russia has a Loran-equivalent: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAYKA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAYKA
- nabla9 2y ago
  The title says GPS, but the article explains that they are doing multi-constellation jamming, which affects several GNSS systems. Most GNSS receivers you can buy use multiple systems anyway.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > Most GNSS receivers you can buy use multiple systems anyway. While receivers can handle the signals of multiple GNSS signals, it may not be legal to do so. In the US, the FCC only allows GPS and Galileo: * https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-approves-galileo-global-navigation-system-0 https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-approves-galileo-global-nav... Other systems, and their frequencies, are not a priority for the FCC and so aren't approved for use. Not sure how it works in other jurisdictions, but this may effect things in equipment that has to be certified to certain standards (like aviation equipment needs to be certified).
    - nabla9 2y ago
      Has not approved, but not strictly forbidden either. Apple, Google, Motorola, virtually all use GNSS receivers that read signals from GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO, QZSS, and BeiDou. What The FCC wants is to know if the chips are implemented in a way that makes them vulnerable to exploits. If GPS and GALILEO signals are jammed or weak, GLONASS and BeiDou can be used to submit false information and cause chaos. I think it should be possible to turn them off at least.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related: 'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cables under attack? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43265224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43265224

54 points by nabla9 2y ago

https://archive.is/z4qWR https://archive.is/z4qWR

"The authors therefore see an urgent need for a special GNSS interference monitoring network along the Baltic Sea coast." The Poles want the EU to spend more on the MIC. That is not a surprise. All while Russia is unable to even take the whole of Donetsk and Zaphorizia. The "Russia is weak" and the "Russia will go to Portugal" narratives happily coexist in the European press.

throw0101d 2y ago
> The "Russia is weak" and the "Russia will go to Portugal" narratives happily coexist in the European press. Just because Russia cannot do some things, that doesn't mean they cannot do others and be annoying, like disrupting the airline industry: * https://www.wingsmagazine.com/estonia-gps-interference-2/ https://www.wingsmagazine.com/estonia-gps-interference-2/ * https://www.gpsworld.com/faa-and-nawcad-advance-crpa-approval-process/ https://www.gpsworld.com/faa-and-nawcad-advance-crpa-approva... (Or interfering with other countries' elections.)
ceejayoz 2y ago
> The "Russia is weak" and the "Russia will go to Portugal" narratives happily coexist in the European press. Weak now and weak forever are not the same thing. Arnold Schwarzenegger was once a baby, but it would be silly to conclude that means he can't lift 50 pounds today. Putin's current territorial ambitions in Ukraine can be traced back to the West's almost complete inaction when he invaded Georgia, Donetsk, Luhansk, and Crimea. A victory in Ukraine would be likely to reinforce the approach as a functional one.
- tw19238129 2y ago
  There is a third narrative: "The sanctions will prevent Russia from getting strong." All narratives can be used when appropriate, by the same media outlet and sometimes by the same journalist. (The issue with Georgia and Ukraine was primarily NATO membership, which does not apply to Poland or the Baltic states.)
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    All of these narratives are logically consistent. "Russia is currently weakened by their war of attrition in Ukraine. Allowing them to win in Ukraine will embolden their territorial ambitions and permit them to rearm. As such, sanctions and aid to Ukraine must continue, to ensure they receive a solid lesson that will prevent them from future ambitions on EU territory."
praptak 2y ago
Painting things as "narratives" omits the fact that there are, well, some facts underneath the "narratives". Either someone jams GPS signal or they don't. The researches have some evidence that the former is true, so we need to gather more data (or decide that GPS jamming is not a problem - the less likely option).

diggan 2y ago

There is a cool webapp for visualizing current (inferred) GPS jamming around the world, here centered on the Baltic Sea: https://gpsjam.org/?lat=58.31474&lon=22.53044&z=4.9&date=2025-03-04 https://gpsjam.org/?lat=58.31474&lon=22.53044&z=4.9&date=202... Seems at least according to that, there is plenty of +10% interference of GPS in the east and south of the Baltic Sea.

Havoc 2y ago

Real „this is why we can’t have nice things“ situation. Reliable navigation is such a pure net positive for humanity.

throw0101d 2y ago

There's been a consistent call by many people that there needs to be a diversity of options for navigation and timing: * https://rntfnd.org/2025/02/04/pnt-gps-critical-issue-for-new-administration-and-congress/ https://rntfnd.org/2025/02/04/pnt-gps-critical-issue-for-new... China has GNSS (BeiDou, plus plans for LEO) plus terrestrial navigation (eLoran) plus a fibre-based network for accurate timing: * https://rntfnd.org/2024/10/03/china-completes-national-eloran-network-the-paper/ https://rntfnd.org/2024/10/03/china-completes-national-elora... * https://rntfnd.org/2024/03/01/patton-read-their-book-chinas-pnt-projects-and-ambitions/ https://rntfnd.org/2024/03/01/patton-read-their-book-chinas-... * https://rntfnd.org/2024/11/29/china-announces-plan-to-further-shade-gps-dominate-global-pnt/ https://rntfnd.org/2024/11/29/china-announces-plan-to-furthe... Russia has a Loran-equivalent: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAYKA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAYKA

nabla9 2y ago
The title says GPS, but the article explains that they are doing multi-constellation jamming, which affects several GNSS systems. Most GNSS receivers you can buy use multiple systems anyway.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > Most GNSS receivers you can buy use multiple systems anyway. While receivers can handle the signals of multiple GNSS signals, it may not be legal to do so. In the US, the FCC only allows GPS and Galileo: * https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-approves-galileo-global-navigation-system-0 https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-approves-galileo-global-nav... Other systems, and their frequencies, are not a priority for the FCC and so aren't approved for use. Not sure how it works in other jurisdictions, but this may effect things in equipment that has to be certified to certain standards (like aviation equipment needs to be certified).
  - nabla9 2y ago
    Has not approved, but not strictly forbidden either. Apple, Google, Motorola, virtually all use GNSS receivers that read signals from GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO, QZSS, and BeiDou. What The FCC wants is to know if the chips are implemented in a way that makes them vulnerable to exploits. If GPS and GALILEO signals are jammed or weak, GLONASS and BeiDou can be used to submit false information and cause chaos. I think it should be possible to turn them off at least.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related: 'Shadow fleets' and sabotage: are Europe's undersea cables under attack? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43265224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43265224