8 ms·

DEFCON: Why conference harassment matters

108 points by simcop2387 14y ago

voxx 14y ago
I think this chick should lighten up personally. I mean, it's not like she was injured. I guarantee that the incidents she mentioned were lighthearted and also exaggerated.
aortega 14y ago
Those cards are the stupidest idea that I ever heard. This woman is complaining for being harrased in a place where 10000 men from 15-50 are constantly drunk, really. And the answer is giving out colored cards? nature forces can't be controlled with cards.
- shadowfiend 14y ago
  The cards hopefully shame you into changing your behavior. Your brain is what needs to be controlling you. No matter how drunk you are. EDIT: Also, being rude (a word which epically understates the kind of behavior mentioned here) is not a natural force. It's a behavior, like being polite. Which your brain controls. No matter how drunk you are.
  - aortega 14y ago
    I agree, brain control over impulses is what separate us from monkeys. But we are still monkeys, and the "creeper" guy over millenia tends to reproduce more over the polite guy, and so the creeper gen get selected and survives, that's how evolution works. It sucks that womens have a bad time at confs, but the last thing that I want is a police force caring for offended people, it's bad enough that modern confs are mostly social events about who get invited to which party, the antithesis of nerd/hacker behaviour.
    - sp332 14y ago
      We don't have to wait for evolution. We have brains that can learn - during the span of our own lifetimes! I really think you didn't read the article if you think this is about being "offended". It specifically mentions Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff which you can read about in more detail here http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-defcon/ http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-...
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      Okay, I'm dropping the politeness. I wish I could unilaterally remove you from the programming/hacker/humanity community. And Voxx. And anyone else who wants to act like it's unreasonable for women to want to go to a conference like this and not be, frankly, sexually molested. It's not "offended" people and to characterize it as such is so out of line, I'm not sure how best to express it. (edited to remove my less-less-politeness, I feel guilty using such language on HN)
      - aortega 14y ago
        Sorry, I did not wanted to offend you. I hope your understand that removing people with different opinions that yours will not help you solve any problems. Nevertheless, I still convinced that there is a problem, that the card solution to this problem is comically wrong, and that the "conference police" solution to this problem is the worst. EDIT: BTW, If you were sexually molested at a conf. you can tell the regular police. There are very clear laws against that behaviour that also are valid inside conferences.
        knowtheory 14y ago
        Well, if it matters to you, I concur with drivebyacct2's desire, and I have a Y chromosome. Societies require enforcement mechanisms, or it is just base nature, red in tooth and claw. If you think there are problems that must be corrected, you too surely believe that there are mechanisms for coercing behavior. Exile is one such method that's been used in many civilizations over millenia. Edit: It's worth pointing out that your assumption that drivebyacct22 is a girl simply because he/she disagrees with you is really weird.
        aortega 14y ago
        Yes I removed that, I wanted to make a small joke but I realized people are too serious about this issue. Yes there are mechanisms for coercing behavior, jail for example. We already have laws governing sexual misconduct much more effective than colored cards. I hope you realize the potential of abuse that a rule against "offending" people have. EDIT: I'm sure we at least agree that most of the harrasments occur under the influence of alcohol. So what about banning Alcohol in conferences, like you know, 100% of academic conferences do. Problem solved.
    - InclinedPlane 14y ago
      So what you're saying here is that we shouldn't be arresting people who commit sex crimes while drunk we should be euthenizing them to remove their genes from the population?
      - aortega 14y ago
        No. There is already a solution to that problem, is called police. We don't need additional police.
        rdl 14y ago
        At conferences and other private events, it basically goes like this: Someone behaves inappropriately. Event organizers and/or their security designees and/or venue security request that the offender leave for whatever reason. Depending on venue, level of intoxication, threat, etc., the person may be escorted off the premises (how much force can be used depends on legal situation, too). If someone is unwilling to leave, police may be called and offender charged with trespassing. Attempting to re-enter would be trespassing, and police may be called. Attempting to assault security or event staff leads to police and ambulance being called. It's pretty normal for conference venues to have their own security (for fire safety as well as physical security), and for conference organizers to have security (mainly for crowd control and access control, but also for responding to things like fires caused by cellphones...). Having a conference-affiliated security person request that you leave an event is less damaging to you than having casino security formally ban you from the premises forever, and either is better than having police come and criminal trespassing charges filed.
        pyre 14y ago
        Some of the examples we're presented with are of physical harassment (i.e. groping). I think the implication is that the police should handle these incidences rather than trying to police them outside of the law.
        rdl 14y ago
- sp332 14y ago
  I don't think those cards are just for being hit on, really.
  - cyber 14y ago
    Right. They are for being hit on badly.
- antoko 14y ago
  From the article The cards are a hilarious way to raise awareness of the problem of brutal sexual harassment at DEFCON and similar conferences. Unfortunately, it will take more than raising awareness to make hacker conferences safe for women. We’re waiting to hear about the first[2] hacker conference to adopt a specific, enforceable, well-planned policy protecting women from harassment – and then we’re going to promote the hell out of it. Did you really just get bored and stop reading when you got to the colored cards? You were already 80% through the thing!
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Excuse me (it's more polite than what I'd like to say.) I'm a man and I don't get drunk and think that I have a right to grope other women or other men. Natural forces tell you that groping women is okay? edit: Further more, if someone does manage to become so uncivilized from the amount of alcohol it takes for them to get to such a state, maybe, just maybe they shouldn't do that. In public. Around people that they can't seem to help but grope. Jesus, is this a real conversation I'm having?
  - pbiggar 14y ago
    Can I recommend referring to "groping" as "sexual assault? It won't help with the trolls here, but it does help focus the discussion a little bit.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  "Nature forces". Right. So we should all just rape, murder, pillage, steal, and throw our feces around because those are natural impulses? I'll pass on that world, I like my humans with at least a modicum of civility.
- rdl 14y ago
  I agree that the cards are a pretty ineffective way of dealing with the problem at events. They're only effective for people who don't know they're doing something inappropriate, but do care when told. I think that's a very small percentage of offensive people. Selfishly, I care more about getting the (admittedly very small number of) hacker females to attend and contribute to events more than unrestrained free speech by attendees. If kicking out a few obnoxious drunken guys, and convincing others to behave reasonably, is necessary, fine. That seems a lot more effective than cards handed out by attendees. Naming and shaming people who act like idiots would also be effective I suppose, but probably more potentially open to drama and consequences than quietly ejecting them for the rest of the event.
  - pyre 14y ago
    > Naming and shaming people who act like idiots would > also be effective I suppose A "Wall of Creeps" next to the "Wall of Sheep?" (or maybe the threat of "poor impulse control" tattooed to your forehead? ;-)
  - britta 14y ago
    There's something interesting about these cards - they're helping DEFCON people adopt a usable vocabulary for talking about harassment, an addition to our jargon. Here's an example. A few days ago I was part of a Rio elevator full of DEFCON people when it stopped at a floor where a non-attendee woman was looking to get in. There was obviously no room inside, but one of the guys hollered at her to "get in anyway - you're a cute woman - we love women - this ratio needs to be improved!" She instantly disappeared. As the elevator door closed, another guy looked at him and said "dude, yellow card." Silence the rest of the way down. It's a small thing, but I was the one DEFCON woman in the elevator, and I appreciated that verbal yellow card - in other words, while I was in the middle of mentally processing what had just happened and whether creepy attention would shift to me, a fellow attendee had quickly and effectively reset the tone of the elevator to basic civility. This is good.
    - selenamarie 14y ago
      Thanks for sharing this story! :)
- micahflee 14y ago
  It's ridiculous and harmful to think sexual harassment is justified just because you're in a large group of drunk men. Also, there aren't 10,000 men that go to DEFCON. A large percentage of the attendees are women.
- aortega 14y ago
  This post really set people off. Guess what, the cards were such a retarded idea, apparently in Defcon there were contests about who got more red or yellow cards, this actually caused lots of harrasment.
rdl 14y ago
I didn't notice any sexual harassment this year at either BSidesLV (where I was on the security team both days, and where one of the main organizers is a woman) or at Defcon (although the in-your-face Chippendales posters all over the hotel were annoying). Nor at HOPE. Other than at Bsides, I wasn't actively seeking out bad behavior either, but it wasn't in-your-face if it did exist. (One speaker at Defcon used a James Bond movie hook in a talk about trusted platforms, with "don't get hacked, win the money, and get the girl", but I wouldn't consider that particularly inappropriate -- that it was James Bond makes it less bad than if it were a generic "don't get hacked, get laid" reference.) Compared to Defcon 1-13, which had pretty pervasive sexual harassment. (Plus more public drunkenness and drug use, too). I was in Iraq during 14-18, so I can't really comment on those. (This year, at an after-Defcon party on Sunday, the only obnoxiously drunk harassing person I encountered was female, too. That's probably not an improvement for society.) I do kind of hate how people-with-kids now bring their children to Defcon, and the general push to turn it into "hacker disneyland" (with NSA recruiting there, various "Defcon kids" programs, etc.). I don't think that's related to less sexual harassment, just with the thing being bigger and a lot of participants now being old. USENIX Security, IETF, and Nanog seem to be the best overall blend of "non-offensive atmosphere", "actual technical content", and smart/interesting people. There's probably a role for something cheaper and similar, maybe an extension of BSides, since as an individual, I'm a lot more willing to pay $100-200 for a conference than $1500-2500.
- selenamarie 14y ago
  It's heartening to hear that. I was a *nix security researcher and admin in the late-90s, and attended DEFCON 8 with a group of men. I never went back on my own. An organizer's support for kdotcdot's cards makes me want to go to DEFCON next year.
  - rdl 14y ago
    Unless you go to really sketchy private parties in people's hotel rooms, you're probably better off at Defcon overall now than in Vegas otherwise. (Also, I strongly suggest the majority of inappropriate behavior is by the younger attendees; most of the people who have been going to Defcon since the AP or earlier are now in their 30s, many married/kids, have real jobs which mean they have something to lose if they behave badly at a professional event, etc.)
enneff 14y ago
I had a strange experience that when I signed in to HOPE9 at the "Department of Hopeland Security," this year. Following the "homeland security" theme, a man and a woman made a couple of weak jokes about a "pat down," which I kinda laughed at, and then the woman came up to me and actually started patting me down. It was clearly a joke, but it was a violation of my personal space and it made me feel pretty uncomfortable. (At least at the airport they ask for your permission!) This was the first thing I experienced walking into an unfamiliar environment full of unfamiliar people. I was so shocked that I didn't say anything. If this kind of thing happens to men (like me), I'm not surprised that Valerie and other women are hesitant to attend these conferences.
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  Pat-downs are pretty standard in public events and totally fine for security. You know exactly who checked you if anything goes wrong, and he is hanging by a paycheck.
  - Sidnicious 14y ago
    HOPE isn’t really that kind of a conference (you can come and go as you please and there’s usually just a volunteer sitting by the door glancing at everyone to make sure they have badges). If he got a pat down it wasn’t in any kind of official context. (FWIW, the attendees are pretty friendly.)
  - enneff 14y ago
    It was not a security pat down. It was a badly made joke that involved someone touching me without my consent.
- caseysoftware 14y ago
  I regularly fight the TSA at the airport and have been threatened many times. I document my antics using #fuTSA. The last few times they asked "do you consent?" I asked "does it matter what I say? They answered "not really" My response "so why bother asking? It's incredibly deceitful for a Federal employee to ask for my consent to do something when they're going to do it anyway. You're just trying to convince people they have a choice.. when we don't." I always get the "aggressive patdown" then. ;)
david_shaw 14y ago
I'm always hesitant to bring my fiancee to hacker conferences, but she wants to support me and understand "what I do," so she has been to DEFCON the past three years. Yeah, she gets hit on. A lot. Mostly by drunk, smelly guys, and then proceeds to tell me how much it sucks. Her ass was grabbed several times at DEFCON events. My understand is that it's not an altogether pleasant experience for a non-totally-nerdy girl to spend any length of time at security conferences... and what with BSides and DEFCON, we were there a week. But here's the thing: girls are going to get hit on at a drunken Black Hat party at PURE just as much as they'd get hit on at a drunken normal night party at PURE. Yes, it's hackers, and you'd maybe expect better behavior (unless you've been to a lot of these things), but is the behavior worse than any other night club? I'm not a lady, but based on what I've heard, not really. Las Vegas is a dirty, "sinful" place, and any moderately attractive woman going out to a bar or club there is going to get hit on. Now, when we're talking about disgusting, incessant harassment, that's different. And that is the line I think we need to draw. Sure, it's difficult because many of these "hackers" are severely lacking in the "social skills" department, but walking up to a woman and grabbing her boobs is going to get you slapped and probably arrested. Anywhere. Personally, I didn't see a lot of that... just a bunch of nerdy, socially awkward guys trying (and failing) to pick up women.
- DividesByZero 14y ago
  "but is the behavior worse than any other night club" So what? Other nightclubs aren't representing the hacker community. This sort of behaviour ought to be attacked anywhere anyone has the power to attack it.
  - cantankerous 14y ago
    The underlying point is that this is part of a systemic, larger problem with many men and how they relate to women..hacker or no.
- TillE 14y ago
  > Her ass was grabbed several times at DEFCON events. > but walking up to a woman and grabbing her boobs is going to get you slapped and probably arrested. Anywhere. Personally, I didn't see a lot of that... just a bunch of nerdy, socially awkward guys trying (and failing) to pick up women. ...what?
smegel 14y ago
Which universe exactly is this where "geeks" and "nerds" suddenly turn into ravenous, over-confident and over-sexed pickup machines? In my universe, and it has always been this way, whenever I go to a party the geeks and nerds end up huddled in a corner, occasionally daring to look at a woman, and whose social interaction bear such a close resemblance to the Big Bang Theory that it is quite embarrassing. Admittedly I am not from the US (maybe things are different there), but I find this whole picture a bit hard to imagine.
- enneff 14y ago
  Surely you don't assume that all geeks are like this? It only takes a few bad apples.
- modarts 14y ago
  Alcohol.
- Jach 14y ago
  I find myself asking similar questions when these stories come up. Even after accounting for alcohol (they could force breathalyser tests at badge-pickup time to reduce drunks inside...), it just doesn't fit very well. I suspect it's incorrect to think that the offenders are often socially inept. In this universe, being an "[anything] geek" is OK now. Programming and techie-ness in general are "cool". While it has resulted in less bullying for the nerds, the tradeoff is that techies and the like no longer fit into a small range of human personalities, which conveniently explains why the more mono-personality conventions of old were more respectful. The personalities now more closely represent society as a whole, which is filled with ravenous, over-confident, and over-sexed pickup machines. Indeed, the types of behaviors reported sound a lot more like the work of college fraternity bros than any of the privacy-loving/shy/asexual/low-libido/antisocial/"socially inept"/functionally-autistic/egalitarian nerds (who rarely go to conventions (let alone the after-parties) in the first place because crowds!) that were previously what made up a great percentage of the tech population.
ChrisNorstrom 14y ago
Thank you so much for this article. It actually had examples and those are the best weapon women have against sexism/sexual harassment. It's one thing to talk about sexism vaguely and broadly and another to actually tell the stories. "I think this chick should lighten up personally." It's hard for males (me included) sometimes to relate to sexism (think of all the women in tech articles we've debated) or sexual harassment because we're not on the menu. We don't experience it. We aren't the prey. It isn't until men themselves feel vulnerable and dominated that they realize what an awful feeling it is to be invaded, harassed, or threatened sexually. From "innocent" ass grabbings to brutal rape. Men aren't frightened of such events because they'll probably never experience them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2W8lgVUeA&list=FLpASQSYUahqjFWtNG2YW2Tw&index=7&feature=plpp_video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2W8lgVUeA&list=FLpASQS... Enjoy. You'll see sexual harassment and rape in a whole new light after watching that video. Getting your ass squeezed doesn't sound so innocent now does it?
- Tichy 14y ago
  Who would say "lighten up" to somebody whose groin was groped? Just because one blogger suggested it, it still isn't the standard thing to say to women. I downvoted you for quoting this out of context from another article and fostering a harmful meme.
  - ChrisNorstrom 14y ago
    "I think this chick should lighten up personally." Someone actually posted that HERE, in the comments below, it got such a negative score that the comment disappeared and most people on HN won't see it unless they have "dead" comments turned on in their HN settings. I was responding to that person. Despite there not being a lot of comments like that here (you'd get downvoted into oblivion) There are lots of guys like that all over the place. I get what you mean about it being hurtful to men. Being constantly shown as a primitive horny neanderthal with no self control makes all men look bad. It makes us feel bad to be represented that way. But it's not a "stereotype" it's a statistic, don't be in denial or run away from it.
    - 14y ago
alwaysinshade 14y ago
Reading the anecdotes in the article (crotch grabbing, asking a girl to flash her breasts etc) you have to wonder whether this sort of behaviour would be prevalent at hacker events simply because black-hats by their very nature tend to be opportunistic and seek exploits both in the digital realm and the physical. I'm sure social retardedness plays a part but I suspect many of the individuals who carried out these acts knew exactly what they were getting up to.
wetzler 14y ago
I'm really surprised by the number of "what did the women expect??" comments in this thread, but I'm glad there are a few smart, well-spoken, good folks in here too. Groping strangers is inappropriate in any public environment; I can't image how it would feel for a woman at a tech conference. It's already a weird feeling to be outnumbered by so many men. You wonder if they consider you a part of their peer group. Getting groped by one of them would be an obvious signal that you're not.
- munin 14y ago
  groping strangers is actually a crime.
- pbiggar 14y ago
  I went to a couple of "Women in technology" meetings, where I was often outnumbered 5-to-1. It's terrifying. I can't imagine the idea of going to a place where I'm so outnumbered, and also having the possibility of being groped. Frankly, I'm amazed the police aren't called more. Groping - or "sexual assault" as it's more commonly called - is very very illegal.
  - belorn 14y ago
    I have studied in classes where I was the sole guy + 30 women (Physcology course). I can only say, you get used to it after the first few days. That said, any assault, be that a bottle to the head, first to the face, hand to the groin, or foot to the torso, should be reported.
dillona 14y ago
If you're actually serious about security, the answer could be simply: don't attend DEFCON. The quality is laughable, and in my opinion it is more of an "alternative lifestyle" conference than a "hacker" conference. The joke around my friends is "Wait....DEFCON has talks?" The best (or only good in my opinion) piece of DEFCON is CTF, though, which I would highly encourage everyone to try out. It's an incredible learning experience and a lot of fun. Infiltrate in Miami is probably the best conference. Black Hat can be very good too. Personally I'm planning on going to DerbyCon this fall.
Claudus 14y ago
I just spent the past week in Las Vegas for my 15th DEFCON, I'm male. The conference has so many different aspects, it really is better to break it into components, talks during the day, chill-out areas, CTF room, hardware/lockpicking villages, public/private night parties, hanging out at the bars all night, etc. Here are some of my observations (for better or worse): * If you're a woman, expect to get hit on dozens of times to varying degrees. * Some people are drunk during the day, most people are drunk during the night. * DEFCON attendees tend to be the personality types that make their own rules, and aren't well integrated socially. * There are some (very few) attendees that seem to have mental problems, don't understand boundaries, and will do very inappropriate things; at least a few are usually banned or kicked out of the hotel or conference each year. * I chatted with a cigarette girl in the Rio at one point, and asked her if she had been harassed a lot by DEFCON attendees, and she quantified it as, "Not really that badly (in comparison to other events)". * Small private parties at night can get wildly inappropriate (these are not official DEFCON events, they are private parties hosted by attendees), you'll find naked people in pools at least a dozen times during the con, at least 2 or 3 instances of people engaging in some form of sexual intercourse, strippers, porn playing on a display in the corner, drugs, prostitutes (seemingly not having much success), etc. This behavior is perpetrated by both male and female attendees, and in fact the average female attendee is worse than the average male attendee in my experience; although, women being in a great minority, you're much more likely to be on the receiving end of inappropriate behavior as a woman. I had one girl tell me she comes to DEFCON just to meet guys, and said, "I get to have sex with any guy here I want". This year alone I had female attendees I didn't know, or just met, slap me on the ass several times, had 2 drunk girls walk up and kiss my cheek, had my nipple tweaked once, had my crotch bumped/groped/etc. 3 times, and had a random assortment of other harassing behavior directed towards me (all of this was at night during the parties). My friend was wearing a kilt, and at one point had a girl stop him to stick her head under the kilt so her friend could take a picture, and then followed it up by grabbing at his crotch while she was down there (in this instance the girls weren't DEFCON attendees, just random drunk women in a casino). CONCLUSION? * If you avoid the late night (especially unofficial) parties, bars, and drunken events in general, you are going to avoid most of the inappropriate (and worst) behavior. * Female attendees will get hit on multiple times by lonely nerdy guys, I really don't know what to say about this, but if you stick to the actual convention, you probably won't endure much worse than bad pickup lines. * DEFCON has the weirdest, smartest, oddly intense mixture of people I've ever met that mostly come to go completely insane and push boundaries of all kinds... It does have negatives, but the experience is something I look forward to all year long.
vishaldpatel 14y ago
Someone should post this on the Defcon forums.
peterwwillis 14y ago
You know why no one will ever take this blog post seriously? It's about DEFCON. Those that have not been, let me sum up what the conference is about. It's in Las Vegas. The general attitude is that you should be drunk 24/7. Most of the attendees are horny losers who wish they could come up with talks like "hacking gender" and "cable modem hacking". The weekend becomes a blur, and you just hope you're sober enough to make your flight home. And something about security talks. Those of you that have been, and didn't just go to talks and sit in their hotel room, know what i'm talking about. Mardi Gras for nerds, toned down a bit, with something like 5% female attendance. If you want to combat sexism in your industry and at your conferences, you probably need more organizations like Ada Initiative. But it's not going to do a god damn bit of difference about DEF CON. This whole piece hinges on the idea that there's one "worst" offender, and if we can just get them all to play nice, feminism will reign and no woman will ever be victimized at a conference again. Wake up. Sexism is a big, big problem, all over the globe, in many different communities. I can quote you about 10 different stories of women being harassed in the general vicinity of where I live. I don't need to tell you about a woman who was groped at a bar, because quite frankly, nobody is going to do shit about it. If I wrote a blog post about that bar, still nobody would do anything about it. Calling out one conference and making this thinly veiled assertion that all conferences are just like it is not only deceptive, it's blatantly misrepresenting the community surrounding the conferences. Women are the most aware people about the power of sex in culture. They are born with people looking at them different, and depending on their lot in life, will experience both degradation and achievement all based on circumstance. The idea that a woman could write an article like this with no idea that occasionally a drunken man will make a pass at them is preposterous. Therefore I can only assume it's written specifically to start a kind of cultural flame war with the intent being to bring more attention and resources to their organization's cause. In short: Using DEF CON as a model for sexism at all conferences is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read.
- belorn 14y ago
  You are perfectly right that its the general attitude at defcon that is the problem, through I would claim its cause is the cowboy culture in the hacking community. It is the idea that hacking is all about the wild west, where some drunken, guns at the hip, "cool guy" can come and save princess and hunt down and hurt the bad guy. That said, the bar example you took up is not very relevant. I could tell you about a mugging that happened, even make a blog post about it, but no one would care or do anything about it. I could talk about a car accident, even one including a drunk driver, but it would be meet with the same reaction. Common crime do not create reaction from society. Maybe if a 9 year old daughter of some politician got groped at a bar you might see some media coverage and reaction, but that would be true the same if she got mugged or was hit by a drunk driver.
gatordan 14y ago
This article is about a call to action to end sexual assault and harassment against women. It's really disappointing that the majority of comments that have followed are about how things really aren't THAT bad (as a man), or that women should expect this from a bunch of lonely guys, or that hey it happens to men too. I know some of these commenters are are well meaning, but this article isn't about you. The comments miss the point and completely undermine the author with their male centered narrative. So next time you read about a minority group creating something exclusive to their gender, race (like Black Girls Code), or religion, remember this thread of comments. Because I bet you're first instinct will be to say "the solution is not to divide us into separate groups!". But until you start listening, internalizing, and cultivating those minority voices rather than dismissing them or displacing them with your own, those people are going to keep dropping out, showing up small numbers, or start making their own exclusive conferences/coding groups/fill-in-the-blank.
- belorn 14y ago
  Articles like this are declaring issues in existing communities. This make it natural for members in those communities to create opinions and question when listening, internalizing, and cultivating the issues brought forth. Some of those opinions will be of the type "Is this issue, compared to all other form of issues already identified in the community, significant different that it need a imminent and unique reaction?". Hackers/programers/scientists/problem solvers is also extremely, to the point of obsession, interested in identify root issues when talking about problems. To find root issues, one need to ask questions, like are there similar issues like this one? Are they caused by the same problem? What suggested fixes are there? are those proven to work? whats does the number says, do they show a trend? are there sources that back up what people experience? How can we eliminate research and political biases? are there additional factors involved like relative risk, risk assessment and risk aversion? Denying those questions and asking the community to accept the issues as facts, immune against research and question, and just shut-up and follow any suggested fixes it gets, is wrong. Just simply wrong. Maybe that will result in people dropping out, showing up in small numbers, or who starts making their own exclusive conferences/coding groups/fill-in-the-blank. Maybe. But maybe the better way is to ask the questions and find the answers?
rachelbythebay 14y ago
Here's one approach I've never seen. Assume that a good quantity of the guys at such a conference enjoy the company of women. They would prefer to have an event with at least some of us around, as opposed to the total sausage fest it would otherwise be. (Obviously, some guys enjoy the 'fest, and that's cool too. But I'm not talking about them.) Anyway, it seems like a simple cost-benefit analysis. If you stop being annoying, and stop other people from being annoying, whether by shunning the bad ones, or by whatever means you use to thin out the herd, you create a more welcoming environment. Once you have a more welcoming environment, there may be more of us around. That's more opportunities to hang out with folks who you find pleasing. So, if you want ANY chance to have a nice friendly chat which MIGHT go somewhere some day, you have to start with having established the basics of human decency, dignity, and respect. Otherwise, you're doomed from the get-go. I write this speaking from a little experience. I've stopped going to certain events here in the Valley where all I wanted was to nerd out for a little while with other technical folks and it turned into a "how quickly can I hit on you" thing.
iuguy 14y ago
I sincerely hope at 44Con that we never see behaviour like that described. We're big adopters of the "Don't be a dick" rule, and "Don't take pictures of people who don't want pictures taken" but that's pretty much as far as it goes. Discrimination on gender or race is something we'd take very seriously and kick people out for. If we were ever at the point we needed coloured cards I think I'd cry a little on the inside.
gadders 14y ago
There used to be a website with dating tips for learning-disabled people (ask permission, don't touch inappropriately etc). It sounds like someone should run a session on it at DefCon.

108 points by simcop2387 14y ago

voxx 14y ago

I think this chick should lighten up personally. I mean, it's not like she was injured. I guarantee that the incidents she mentioned were lighthearted and also exaggerated.

aortega 14y ago

Those cards are the stupidest idea that I ever heard. This woman is complaining for being harrased in a place where 10000 men from 15-50 are constantly drunk, really. And the answer is giving out colored cards? nature forces can't be controlled with cards.

shadowfiend 14y ago
The cards hopefully shame you into changing your behavior. Your brain is what needs to be controlling you. No matter how drunk you are. EDIT: Also, being rude (a word which epically understates the kind of behavior mentioned here) is not a natural force. It's a behavior, like being polite. Which your brain controls. No matter how drunk you are.
- aortega 14y ago
  I agree, brain control over impulses is what separate us from monkeys. But we are still monkeys, and the "creeper" guy over millenia tends to reproduce more over the polite guy, and so the creeper gen get selected and survives, that's how evolution works. It sucks that womens have a bad time at confs, but the last thing that I want is a police force caring for offended people, it's bad enough that modern confs are mostly social events about who get invited to which party, the antithesis of nerd/hacker behaviour.
  - sp332 14y ago
    We don't have to wait for evolution. We have brains that can learn - during the span of our own lifetimes! I really think you didn't read the article if you think this is about being "offended". It specifically mentions Like the man who drunkenly tried to lick my shoulder tattoo. Like the man who grabbed my hips while I was waiting for a drink at the EFF party. Like the man who tried to get me to show him my tits so he could punch a hole in a card that, when filled, would net him a favor from one of the official security staff which you can read about in more detail here http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-defcon/ http://singlevoice.net/2012/07/12/sexism-redyellow-cards-at-...
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Okay, I'm dropping the politeness. I wish I could unilaterally remove you from the programming/hacker/humanity community. And Voxx. And anyone else who wants to act like it's unreasonable for women to want to go to a conference like this and not be, frankly, sexually molested. It's not "offended" people and to characterize it as such is so out of line, I'm not sure how best to express it. (edited to remove my less-less-politeness, I feel guilty using such language on HN)
    - aortega 14y ago
      Sorry, I did not wanted to offend you. I hope your understand that removing people with different opinions that yours will not help you solve any problems. Nevertheless, I still convinced that there is a problem, that the card solution to this problem is comically wrong, and that the "conference police" solution to this problem is the worst. EDIT: BTW, If you were sexually molested at a conf. you can tell the regular police. There are very clear laws against that behaviour that also are valid inside conferences.
      - knowtheory 14y ago
        Well, if it matters to you, I concur with drivebyacct2's desire, and I have a Y chromosome. Societies require enforcement mechanisms, or it is just base nature, red in tooth and claw. If you think there are problems that must be corrected, you too surely believe that there are mechanisms for coercing behavior. Exile is one such method that's been used in many civilizations over millenia. Edit: It's worth pointing out that your assumption that drivebyacct22 is a girl simply because he/she disagrees with you is really weird.
        aortega 14y ago
        Yes I removed that, I wanted to make a small joke but I realized people are too serious about this issue. Yes there are mechanisms for coercing behavior, jail for example. We already have laws governing sexual misconduct much more effective than colored cards. I hope you realize the potential of abuse that a rule against "offending" people have. EDIT: I'm sure we at least agree that most of the harrasments occur under the influence of alcohol. So what about banning Alcohol in conferences, like you know, 100% of academic conferences do. Problem solved.
  - InclinedPlane 14y ago
    So what you're saying here is that we shouldn't be arresting people who commit sex crimes while drunk we should be euthenizing them to remove their genes from the population?
    - aortega 14y ago
      No. There is already a solution to that problem, is called police. We don't need additional police.
      - rdl 14y ago
        At conferences and other private events, it basically goes like this: Someone behaves inappropriately. Event organizers and/or their security designees and/or venue security request that the offender leave for whatever reason. Depending on venue, level of intoxication, threat, etc., the person may be escorted off the premises (how much force can be used depends on legal situation, too). If someone is unwilling to leave, police may be called and offender charged with trespassing. Attempting to re-enter would be trespassing, and police may be called. Attempting to assault security or event staff leads to police and ambulance being called. It's pretty normal for conference venues to have their own security (for fire safety as well as physical security), and for conference organizers to have security (mainly for crowd control and access control, but also for responding to things like fires caused by cellphones...). Having a conference-affiliated security person request that you leave an event is less damaging to you than having casino security formally ban you from the premises forever, and either is better than having police come and criminal trespassing charges filed.
        pyre 14y ago
        Some of the examples we're presented with are of physical harassment (i.e. groping). I think the implication is that the police should handle these incidences rather than trying to police them outside of the law.
        rdl 14y ago
sp332 14y ago
I don't think those cards are just for being hit on, really.
- cyber 14y ago
  Right. They are for being hit on badly.
antoko 14y ago
From the article The cards are a hilarious way to raise awareness of the problem of brutal sexual harassment at DEFCON and similar conferences. Unfortunately, it will take more than raising awareness to make hacker conferences safe for women. We’re waiting to hear about the first[2] hacker conference to adopt a specific, enforceable, well-planned policy protecting women from harassment – and then we’re going to promote the hell out of it. Did you really just get bored and stop reading when you got to the colored cards? You were already 80% through the thing!
drivebyacct2 14y ago
Excuse me (it's more polite than what I'd like to say.) I'm a man and I don't get drunk and think that I have a right to grope other women or other men. Natural forces tell you that groping women is okay? edit: Further more, if someone does manage to become so uncivilized from the amount of alcohol it takes for them to get to such a state, maybe, just maybe they shouldn't do that. In public. Around people that they can't seem to help but grope. Jesus, is this a real conversation I'm having?
- pbiggar 14y ago
  Can I recommend referring to "groping" as "sexual assault? It won't help with the trolls here, but it does help focus the discussion a little bit.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
"Nature forces". Right. So we should all just rape, murder, pillage, steal, and throw our feces around because those are natural impulses? I'll pass on that world, I like my humans with at least a modicum of civility.
rdl 14y ago
I agree that the cards are a pretty ineffective way of dealing with the problem at events. They're only effective for people who don't know they're doing something inappropriate, but do care when told. I think that's a very small percentage of offensive people. Selfishly, I care more about getting the (admittedly very small number of) hacker females to attend and contribute to events more than unrestrained free speech by attendees. If kicking out a few obnoxious drunken guys, and convincing others to behave reasonably, is necessary, fine. That seems a lot more effective than cards handed out by attendees. Naming and shaming people who act like idiots would also be effective I suppose, but probably more potentially open to drama and consequences than quietly ejecting them for the rest of the event.
- pyre 14y ago
  > Naming and shaming people who act like idiots would > also be effective I suppose A "Wall of Creeps" next to the "Wall of Sheep?" (or maybe the threat of "poor impulse control" tattooed to your forehead? ;-)
- britta 14y ago
  There's something interesting about these cards - they're helping DEFCON people adopt a usable vocabulary for talking about harassment, an addition to our jargon. Here's an example. A few days ago I was part of a Rio elevator full of DEFCON people when it stopped at a floor where a non-attendee woman was looking to get in. There was obviously no room inside, but one of the guys hollered at her to "get in anyway - you're a cute woman - we love women - this ratio needs to be improved!" She instantly disappeared. As the elevator door closed, another guy looked at him and said "dude, yellow card." Silence the rest of the way down. It's a small thing, but I was the one DEFCON woman in the elevator, and I appreciated that verbal yellow card - in other words, while I was in the middle of mentally processing what had just happened and whether creepy attention would shift to me, a fellow attendee had quickly and effectively reset the tone of the elevator to basic civility. This is good.
  - selenamarie 14y ago
    Thanks for sharing this story! :)
micahflee 14y ago
It's ridiculous and harmful to think sexual harassment is justified just because you're in a large group of drunk men. Also, there aren't 10,000 men that go to DEFCON. A large percentage of the attendees are women.
aortega 14y ago
This post really set people off. Guess what, the cards were such a retarded idea, apparently in Defcon there were contests about who got more red or yellow cards, this actually caused lots of harrasment.

rdl 14y ago

I didn't notice any sexual harassment this year at either BSidesLV (where I was on the security team both days, and where one of the main organizers is a woman) or at Defcon (although the in-your-face Chippendales posters all over the hotel were annoying). Nor at HOPE. Other than at Bsides, I wasn't actively seeking out bad behavior either, but it wasn't in-your-face if it did exist. (One speaker at Defcon used a James Bond movie hook in a talk about trusted platforms, with "don't get hacked, win the money, and get the girl", but I wouldn't consider that particularly inappropriate -- that it was James Bond makes it less bad than if it were a generic "don't get hacked, get laid" reference.) Compared to Defcon 1-13, which had pretty pervasive sexual harassment. (Plus more public drunkenness and drug use, too). I was in Iraq during 14-18, so I can't really comment on those. (This year, at an after-Defcon party on Sunday, the only obnoxiously drunk harassing person I encountered was female, too. That's probably not an improvement for society.) I do kind of hate how people-with-kids now bring their children to Defcon, and the general push to turn it into "hacker disneyland" (with NSA recruiting there, various "Defcon kids" programs, etc.). I don't think that's related to less sexual harassment, just with the thing being bigger and a lot of participants now being old. USENIX Security, IETF, and Nanog seem to be the best overall blend of "non-offensive atmosphere", "actual technical content", and smart/interesting people. There's probably a role for something cheaper and similar, maybe an extension of BSides, since as an individual, I'm a lot more willing to pay $100-200 for a conference than $1500-2500.

selenamarie 14y ago
It's heartening to hear that. I was a *nix security researcher and admin in the late-90s, and attended DEFCON 8 with a group of men. I never went back on my own. An organizer's support for kdotcdot's cards makes me want to go to DEFCON next year.
- rdl 14y ago
  Unless you go to really sketchy private parties in people's hotel rooms, you're probably better off at Defcon overall now than in Vegas otherwise. (Also, I strongly suggest the majority of inappropriate behavior is by the younger attendees; most of the people who have been going to Defcon since the AP or earlier are now in their 30s, many married/kids, have real jobs which mean they have something to lose if they behave badly at a professional event, etc.)

enneff 14y ago

I had a strange experience that when I signed in to HOPE9 at the "Department of Hopeland Security," this year. Following the "homeland security" theme, a man and a woman made a couple of weak jokes about a "pat down," which I kinda laughed at, and then the woman came up to me and actually started patting me down. It was clearly a joke, but it was a violation of my personal space and it made me feel pretty uncomfortable. (At least at the airport they ask for your permission!) This was the first thing I experienced walking into an unfamiliar environment full of unfamiliar people. I was so shocked that I didn't say anything. If this kind of thing happens to men (like me), I'm not surprised that Valerie and other women are hesitant to attend these conferences.

ricardobeat 14y ago
Pat-downs are pretty standard in public events and totally fine for security. You know exactly who checked you if anything goes wrong, and he is hanging by a paycheck.
- Sidnicious 14y ago
  HOPE isn’t really that kind of a conference (you can come and go as you please and there’s usually just a volunteer sitting by the door glancing at everyone to make sure they have badges). If he got a pat down it wasn’t in any kind of official context. (FWIW, the attendees are pretty friendly.)
- enneff 14y ago
  It was not a security pat down. It was a badly made joke that involved someone touching me without my consent.
caseysoftware 14y ago
I regularly fight the TSA at the airport and have been threatened many times. I document my antics using #fuTSA. The last few times they asked "do you consent?" I asked "does it matter what I say? They answered "not really" My response "so why bother asking? It's incredibly deceitful for a Federal employee to ask for my consent to do something when they're going to do it anyway. You're just trying to convince people they have a choice.. when we don't." I always get the "aggressive patdown" then. ;)

david_shaw 14y ago

I'm always hesitant to bring my fiancee to hacker conferences, but she wants to support me and understand "what I do," so she has been to DEFCON the past three years. Yeah, she gets hit on. A lot. Mostly by drunk, smelly guys, and then proceeds to tell me how much it sucks. Her ass was grabbed several times at DEFCON events. My understand is that it's not an altogether pleasant experience for a non-totally-nerdy girl to spend any length of time at security conferences... and what with BSides and DEFCON, we were there a week. But here's the thing: girls are going to get hit on at a drunken Black Hat party at PURE just as much as they'd get hit on at a drunken normal night party at PURE. Yes, it's hackers, and you'd maybe expect better behavior (unless you've been to a lot of these things), but is the behavior worse than any other night club? I'm not a lady, but based on what I've heard, not really. Las Vegas is a dirty, "sinful" place, and any moderately attractive woman going out to a bar or club there is going to get hit on. Now, when we're talking about disgusting, incessant harassment, that's different. And that is the line I think we need to draw. Sure, it's difficult because many of these "hackers" are severely lacking in the "social skills" department, but walking up to a woman and grabbing her boobs is going to get you slapped and probably arrested. Anywhere. Personally, I didn't see a lot of that... just a bunch of nerdy, socially awkward guys trying (and failing) to pick up women.

DividesByZero 14y ago
"but is the behavior worse than any other night club" So what? Other nightclubs aren't representing the hacker community. This sort of behaviour ought to be attacked anywhere anyone has the power to attack it.
- cantankerous 14y ago
  The underlying point is that this is part of a systemic, larger problem with many men and how they relate to women..hacker or no.
TillE 14y ago
> Her ass was grabbed several times at DEFCON events. > but walking up to a woman and grabbing her boobs is going to get you slapped and probably arrested. Anywhere. Personally, I didn't see a lot of that... just a bunch of nerdy, socially awkward guys trying (and failing) to pick up women. ...what?

smegel 14y ago

Which universe exactly is this where "geeks" and "nerds" suddenly turn into ravenous, over-confident and over-sexed pickup machines? In my universe, and it has always been this way, whenever I go to a party the geeks and nerds end up huddled in a corner, occasionally daring to look at a woman, and whose social interaction bear such a close resemblance to the Big Bang Theory that it is quite embarrassing. Admittedly I am not from the US (maybe things are different there), but I find this whole picture a bit hard to imagine.

enneff 14y ago
Surely you don't assume that all geeks are like this? It only takes a few bad apples.
modarts 14y ago
Alcohol.
Jach 14y ago
I find myself asking similar questions when these stories come up. Even after accounting for alcohol (they could force breathalyser tests at badge-pickup time to reduce drunks inside...), it just doesn't fit very well. I suspect it's incorrect to think that the offenders are often socially inept. In this universe, being an "[anything] geek" is OK now. Programming and techie-ness in general are "cool". While it has resulted in less bullying for the nerds, the tradeoff is that techies and the like no longer fit into a small range of human personalities, which conveniently explains why the more mono-personality conventions of old were more respectful. The personalities now more closely represent society as a whole, which is filled with ravenous, over-confident, and over-sexed pickup machines. Indeed, the types of behaviors reported sound a lot more like the work of college fraternity bros than any of the privacy-loving/shy/asexual/low-libido/antisocial/"socially inept"/functionally-autistic/egalitarian nerds (who rarely go to conventions (let alone the after-parties) in the first place because crowds!) that were previously what made up a great percentage of the tech population.

ChrisNorstrom 14y ago

Thank you so much for this article. It actually had examples and those are the best weapon women have against sexism/sexual harassment. It's one thing to talk about sexism vaguely and broadly and another to actually tell the stories. "I think this chick should lighten up personally." It's hard for males (me included) sometimes to relate to sexism (think of all the women in tech articles we've debated) or sexual harassment because we're not on the menu. We don't experience it. We aren't the prey. It isn't until men themselves feel vulnerable and dominated that they realize what an awful feeling it is to be invaded, harassed, or threatened sexually. From "innocent" ass grabbings to brutal rape. Men aren't frightened of such events because they'll probably never experience them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2W8lgVUeA&list=FLpASQSYUahqjFWtNG2YW2Tw&index=7&feature=plpp_video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2W8lgVUeA&list=FLpASQS... Enjoy. You'll see sexual harassment and rape in a whole new light after watching that video. Getting your ass squeezed doesn't sound so innocent now does it?

Tichy 14y ago
Who would say "lighten up" to somebody whose groin was groped? Just because one blogger suggested it, it still isn't the standard thing to say to women. I downvoted you for quoting this out of context from another article and fostering a harmful meme.
- ChrisNorstrom 14y ago
  "I think this chick should lighten up personally." Someone actually posted that HERE, in the comments below, it got such a negative score that the comment disappeared and most people on HN won't see it unless they have "dead" comments turned on in their HN settings. I was responding to that person. Despite there not being a lot of comments like that here (you'd get downvoted into oblivion) There are lots of guys like that all over the place. I get what you mean about it being hurtful to men. Being constantly shown as a primitive horny neanderthal with no self control makes all men look bad. It makes us feel bad to be represented that way. But it's not a "stereotype" it's a statistic, don't be in denial or run away from it.
  - 14y ago

alwaysinshade 14y ago

Reading the anecdotes in the article (crotch grabbing, asking a girl to flash her breasts etc) you have to wonder whether this sort of behaviour would be prevalent at hacker events simply because black-hats by their very nature tend to be opportunistic and seek exploits both in the digital realm and the physical. I'm sure social retardedness plays a part but I suspect many of the individuals who carried out these acts knew exactly what they were getting up to.

wetzler 14y ago

I'm really surprised by the number of "what did the women expect??" comments in this thread, but I'm glad there are a few smart, well-spoken, good folks in here too. Groping strangers is inappropriate in any public environment; I can't image how it would feel for a woman at a tech conference. It's already a weird feeling to be outnumbered by so many men. You wonder if they consider you a part of their peer group. Getting groped by one of them would be an obvious signal that you're not.

munin 14y ago
groping strangers is actually a crime.
pbiggar 14y ago
I went to a couple of "Women in technology" meetings, where I was often outnumbered 5-to-1. It's terrifying. I can't imagine the idea of going to a place where I'm so outnumbered, and also having the possibility of being groped. Frankly, I'm amazed the police aren't called more. Groping - or "sexual assault" as it's more commonly called - is very very illegal.
- belorn 14y ago
  I have studied in classes where I was the sole guy + 30 women (Physcology course). I can only say, you get used to it after the first few days. That said, any assault, be that a bottle to the head, first to the face, hand to the groin, or foot to the torso, should be reported.

dillona 14y ago

If you're actually serious about security, the answer could be simply: don't attend DEFCON. The quality is laughable, and in my opinion it is more of an "alternative lifestyle" conference than a "hacker" conference. The joke around my friends is "Wait....DEFCON has talks?" The best (or only good in my opinion) piece of DEFCON is CTF, though, which I would highly encourage everyone to try out. It's an incredible learning experience and a lot of fun. Infiltrate in Miami is probably the best conference. Black Hat can be very good too. Personally I'm planning on going to DerbyCon this fall.

Claudus 14y ago

I just spent the past week in Las Vegas for my 15th DEFCON, I'm male. The conference has so many different aspects, it really is better to break it into components, talks during the day, chill-out areas, CTF room, hardware/lockpicking villages, public/private night parties, hanging out at the bars all night, etc. Here are some of my observations (for better or worse): * If you're a woman, expect to get hit on dozens of times to varying degrees. * Some people are drunk during the day, most people are drunk during the night. * DEFCON attendees tend to be the personality types that make their own rules, and aren't well integrated socially. * There are some (very few) attendees that seem to have mental problems, don't understand boundaries, and will do very inappropriate things; at least a few are usually banned or kicked out of the hotel or conference each year. * I chatted with a cigarette girl in the Rio at one point, and asked her if she had been harassed a lot by DEFCON attendees, and she quantified it as, "Not really that badly (in comparison to other events)". * Small private parties at night can get wildly inappropriate (these are not official DEFCON events, they are private parties hosted by attendees), you'll find naked people in pools at least a dozen times during the con, at least 2 or 3 instances of people engaging in some form of sexual intercourse, strippers, porn playing on a display in the corner, drugs, prostitutes (seemingly not having much success), etc. This behavior is perpetrated by both male and female attendees, and in fact the average female attendee is worse than the average male attendee in my experience; although, women being in a great minority, you're much more likely to be on the receiving end of inappropriate behavior as a woman. I had one girl tell me she comes to DEFCON just to meet guys, and said, "I get to have sex with any guy here I want". This year alone I had female attendees I didn't know, or just met, slap me on the ass several times, had 2 drunk girls walk up and kiss my cheek, had my nipple tweaked once, had my crotch bumped/groped/etc. 3 times, and had a random assortment of other harassing behavior directed towards me (all of this was at night during the parties). My friend was wearing a kilt, and at one point had a girl stop him to stick her head under the kilt so her friend could take a picture, and then followed it up by grabbing at his crotch while she was down there (in this instance the girls weren't DEFCON attendees, just random drunk women in a casino). CONCLUSION? * If you avoid the late night (especially unofficial) parties, bars, and drunken events in general, you are going to avoid most of the inappropriate (and worst) behavior. * Female attendees will get hit on multiple times by lonely nerdy guys, I really don't know what to say about this, but if you stick to the actual convention, you probably won't endure much worse than bad pickup lines. * DEFCON has the weirdest, smartest, oddly intense mixture of people I've ever met that mostly come to go completely insane and push boundaries of all kinds... It does have negatives, but the experience is something I look forward to all year long.

vishaldpatel 14y ago

Someone should post this on the Defcon forums.

peterwwillis 14y ago

You know why no one will ever take this blog post seriously? It's about DEFCON. Those that have not been, let me sum up what the conference is about. It's in Las Vegas. The general attitude is that you should be drunk 24/7. Most of the attendees are horny losers who wish they could come up with talks like "hacking gender" and "cable modem hacking". The weekend becomes a blur, and you just hope you're sober enough to make your flight home. And something about security talks. Those of you that have been, and didn't just go to talks and sit in their hotel room, know what i'm talking about. Mardi Gras for nerds, toned down a bit, with something like 5% female attendance. If you want to combat sexism in your industry and at your conferences, you probably need more organizations like Ada Initiative. But it's not going to do a god damn bit of difference about DEF CON. This whole piece hinges on the idea that there's one "worst" offender, and if we can just get them all to play nice, feminism will reign and no woman will ever be victimized at a conference again. Wake up. Sexism is a big, big problem, all over the globe, in many different communities. I can quote you about 10 different stories of women being harassed in the general vicinity of where I live. I don't need to tell you about a woman who was groped at a bar, because quite frankly, nobody is going to do shit about it. If I wrote a blog post about that bar, still nobody would do anything about it. Calling out one conference and making this thinly veiled assertion that all conferences are just like it is not only deceptive, it's blatantly misrepresenting the community surrounding the conferences. Women are the most aware people about the power of sex in culture. They are born with people looking at them different, and depending on their lot in life, will experience both degradation and achievement all based on circumstance. The idea that a woman could write an article like this with no idea that occasionally a drunken man will make a pass at them is preposterous. Therefore I can only assume it's written specifically to start a kind of cultural flame war with the intent being to bring more attention and resources to their organization's cause. In short: Using DEF CON as a model for sexism at all conferences is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read.

belorn 14y ago
You are perfectly right that its the general attitude at defcon that is the problem, through I would claim its cause is the cowboy culture in the hacking community. It is the idea that hacking is all about the wild west, where some drunken, guns at the hip, "cool guy" can come and save princess and hunt down and hurt the bad guy. That said, the bar example you took up is not very relevant. I could tell you about a mugging that happened, even make a blog post about it, but no one would care or do anything about it. I could talk about a car accident, even one including a drunk driver, but it would be meet with the same reaction. Common crime do not create reaction from society. Maybe if a 9 year old daughter of some politician got groped at a bar you might see some media coverage and reaction, but that would be true the same if she got mugged or was hit by a drunk driver.

gatordan 14y ago

This article is about a call to action to end sexual assault and harassment against women. It's really disappointing that the majority of comments that have followed are about how things really aren't THAT bad (as a man), or that women should expect this from a bunch of lonely guys, or that hey it happens to men too. I know some of these commenters are are well meaning, but this article isn't about you. The comments miss the point and completely undermine the author with their male centered narrative. So next time you read about a minority group creating something exclusive to their gender, race (like Black Girls Code), or religion, remember this thread of comments. Because I bet you're first instinct will be to say "the solution is not to divide us into separate groups!". But until you start listening, internalizing, and cultivating those minority voices rather than dismissing them or displacing them with your own, those people are going to keep dropping out, showing up small numbers, or start making their own exclusive conferences/coding groups/fill-in-the-blank.

belorn 14y ago
Articles like this are declaring issues in existing communities. This make it natural for members in those communities to create opinions and question when listening, internalizing, and cultivating the issues brought forth. Some of those opinions will be of the type "Is this issue, compared to all other form of issues already identified in the community, significant different that it need a imminent and unique reaction?". Hackers/programers/scientists/problem solvers is also extremely, to the point of obsession, interested in identify root issues when talking about problems. To find root issues, one need to ask questions, like are there similar issues like this one? Are they caused by the same problem? What suggested fixes are there? are those proven to work? whats does the number says, do they show a trend? are there sources that back up what people experience? How can we eliminate research and political biases? are there additional factors involved like relative risk, risk assessment and risk aversion? Denying those questions and asking the community to accept the issues as facts, immune against research and question, and just shut-up and follow any suggested fixes it gets, is wrong. Just simply wrong. Maybe that will result in people dropping out, showing up in small numbers, or who starts making their own exclusive conferences/coding groups/fill-in-the-blank. Maybe. But maybe the better way is to ask the questions and find the answers?

rachelbythebay 14y ago

Here's one approach I've never seen. Assume that a good quantity of the guys at such a conference enjoy the company of women. They would prefer to have an event with at least some of us around, as opposed to the total sausage fest it would otherwise be. (Obviously, some guys enjoy the 'fest, and that's cool too. But I'm not talking about them.) Anyway, it seems like a simple cost-benefit analysis. If you stop being annoying, and stop other people from being annoying, whether by shunning the bad ones, or by whatever means you use to thin out the herd, you create a more welcoming environment. Once you have a more welcoming environment, there may be more of us around. That's more opportunities to hang out with folks who you find pleasing. So, if you want ANY chance to have a nice friendly chat which MIGHT go somewhere some day, you have to start with having established the basics of human decency, dignity, and respect. Otherwise, you're doomed from the get-go. I write this speaking from a little experience. I've stopped going to certain events here in the Valley where all I wanted was to nerd out for a little while with other technical folks and it turned into a "how quickly can I hit on you" thing.

iuguy 14y ago

I sincerely hope at 44Con that we never see behaviour like that described. We're big adopters of the "Don't be a dick" rule, and "Don't take pictures of people who don't want pictures taken" but that's pretty much as far as it goes. Discrimination on gender or race is something we'd take very seriously and kick people out for. If we were ever at the point we needed coloured cards I think I'd cry a little on the inside.

gadders 14y ago

There used to be a website with dating tips for learning-disabled people (ask permission, don't touch inappropriately etc). It sounds like someone should run a session on it at DefCon.