3 ms·

If you want to piss someone off do you go for the black belt dude carrying a shotgun or (for the same amount of damage) a 5yo kid?

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
So then why am I wrong when I suggest if EU's navies were stronger then sabotages would go down?
- willvarfar 2y ago
  its not about hard power necessarily, but soft power. If the EU united politically and made these harassment attacks consequential then they would stop. E.g. perhaps something along the lines of prison for captains who were 'derelict in duty', rewards to crews who grass and seizing ships that, by dragging anchors 'by accident', have proven themselves unseaworthy etc.
  - benterix 2y ago
    I believe something like this will happen, sooner or later. For now, it's not easily to organize as the crew can always use the excuse "oh, this was unintentional" but charging them with the cost of repair plus additional penalty could be a good starting point.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > but charging them with the cost of repair plus additional penalty could be a good starting point. Good luck enforcing that. The "shadow fleet" ships all operate under flags of convenience and ownership is hidden behind layers upon layers of shell companies.
      - willvarfar 2y ago
        If the fines and damages are not paid then perhaps the ship and its cargo are liquidated?
        mschuster91 2y ago
        The problem is, the oil tankers are single wall, shoddily maintained, probably contaminated with all sorts of nasty stuff and with barely any history records. These things are effectively floating time bombs - assuming you can find a buyer for the seized cargo given the lack of paperwork in the first place, you need to sell the ship for scrap because it's nowhere near seaworthy (remember: single wall, no Western insurer will handle that), and that costs a loooot of money if you are a Western country and can't just haul it off to Alang [1] or whatever place and let others deal with the fallout. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56196069 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56196069
- mrweasel 2y ago
  Because the EU has a very different reaction pattern and overall resources. It was never a question about downing ships that are sabotaging cables. Neither the EU countries, nor the US have enough ships to patrol or escort every civilian ship that happens to parse over an undersea cable. Assume that the Russian shadow fleet starts targetting US cables. What would, could, the US do? The US government could easily retaliate by simply opening the US weapons depos to the Ukrainians. Target US infrastructure and Ukraine gets whatever it wants. The EU can't really do something similar. Technically you're not wrong, if the EU navies where large enough, they could just escort every single civilian ship, but that's not realistic.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago

So then why am I wrong when I suggest if EU's navies were stronger then sabotages would go down?

willvarfar 2y ago
its not about hard power necessarily, but soft power. If the EU united politically and made these harassment attacks consequential then they would stop. E.g. perhaps something along the lines of prison for captains who were 'derelict in duty', rewards to crews who grass and seizing ships that, by dragging anchors 'by accident', have proven themselves unseaworthy etc.
- benterix 2y ago
  I believe something like this will happen, sooner or later. For now, it's not easily to organize as the crew can always use the excuse "oh, this was unintentional" but charging them with the cost of repair plus additional penalty could be a good starting point.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > but charging them with the cost of repair plus additional penalty could be a good starting point. Good luck enforcing that. The "shadow fleet" ships all operate under flags of convenience and ownership is hidden behind layers upon layers of shell companies.
    - willvarfar 2y ago
      If the fines and damages are not paid then perhaps the ship and its cargo are liquidated?
      - mschuster91 2y ago
        The problem is, the oil tankers are single wall, shoddily maintained, probably contaminated with all sorts of nasty stuff and with barely any history records. These things are effectively floating time bombs - assuming you can find a buyer for the seized cargo given the lack of paperwork in the first place, you need to sell the ship for scrap because it's nowhere near seaworthy (remember: single wall, no Western insurer will handle that), and that costs a loooot of money if you are a Western country and can't just haul it off to Alang [1] or whatever place and let others deal with the fallout. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56196069 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56196069
mrweasel 2y ago
Because the EU has a very different reaction pattern and overall resources. It was never a question about downing ships that are sabotaging cables. Neither the EU countries, nor the US have enough ships to patrol or escort every civilian ship that happens to parse over an undersea cable. Assume that the Russian shadow fleet starts targetting US cables. What would, could, the US do? The US government could easily retaliate by simply opening the US weapons depos to the Ukrainians. Target US infrastructure and Ukraine gets whatever it wants. The EU can't really do something similar. Technically you're not wrong, if the EU navies where large enough, they could just escort every single civilian ship, but that's not realistic.