4 ms·

Have you lived in Denmark, Japan, China, Netherlands and some other countries in the past 10-15 years? I really don’t think you weigh in people’s personal prefe

Have you lived in Denmark, Japan, China, Netherlands and some other countries in the past 10-15 years? I really don’t think you weigh in people’s personal preferences and general quality of life into your equations. There is a very big reason why there’s no more large swaths of immigrants from European and some Asian countries flocking into the US. Yes there is some, but the times when it was objectively much better to live and grow in the states is in the past. Money is really not the only thing people care about, but it’s hard to understand for people for whom money is the only thing they care about.

throwaway2037 2y ago
> The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans. I'm so tired of this trope on HN. It comes up over and over again, but never considers non-economic quality of life issues. Take for example public schools: They are awful in poor US states, and good-to-excellent in most highly developed European nations.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  I swear, none of these people have been to Louisiana, West Virginia, or any of the empty-looking cities that used to be lively 50 years ago. And I’m saying this as a person who isn’t American, but wanted to check it out myself before I made assumptions about the world.
  - selimthegrim 2y ago
    Living in New Orleans right now I concur.
  - throwawayq3423 2y ago
    Also GPD per capita is a terrible measure of standard of life considering 40k in Louisiana when you need to pay for most of health care education etc. isn't that much. The average life in these countries is undeniably better, even if poorer on paper.
systemf_omega 2y ago
Money buys you freedom to live you life anywhere you want, and do whatever you want. Do you think grinding away for low pay until your mid 60s, only to end up facing a collapsing pension system in your final years with little savings is the best way to spend your time on earth? Also how can a person that hasn't experienced the economic freedom the US provides to top talent accurately judge if their country of choice is better? I would like to see the statistics on SWEs that got wealthy in America, that regret moving to the states and would prefer to revert all those years. (I've lived in Europe for most of my life by the way. Lots of good places to retire, but mostly poor choices for spending my productive years there.)
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  My friend, not everyone makes 150K/year. Like yes, we can do it, and choose our freedom because of the industry we live in. But you might be very disconnected from an average person’s life. Average or poorer person in the US does not get to choose where they retire either. I promise, 70 year retired old ojiisans over here in Tokyo don’t think their life would’ve been better if they lived in Oklahoma. You guys think everyone wants the same as you do, but it really isn’t like that.
  - systemf_omega 2y ago
    > Average or poorer person in the US does not get to choose where they retire either. I've already addressed this in another thread. We're talking about brain drain. That means we are talking about highly skilled professionals for in-demand fields that can easily get this level of pay. A skilled senior SWE can very realistically demand $300k+ comp in US tech companies. In the startup space $150k + equity has become table stakes, and their hiring bar is often significantly lower. These are not anomalies, tech companies employ hundreds of thousands of engineers. > You guys think everyone wants the same as you do, but it really isn’t like that. Ok, so tell me, what are things people want? Because people in the aforementioned circles can retire in their 30s, and spend the rest of their lives traveling the world, taking care of their family, and pursing their passions without worries. Is that somehow controversial?
Ray20 2y ago
>There is a very big reason why there’s no more large swaths of immigrants from European and some Asian countries flocking into the US. Yeas, and this reason - US visa is one of the hardest to get.
- tokai 2y ago
  Denmark is much much harder than the US.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    How so?
coolThingsFirst 2y ago
It's not just money. There's another aspect which the US has that edges out the competition. The fact that everyone is treated as an American in the place without racism/xenophobia. This is a huge benefit over impenetrable countries like Denmark/Netherlands.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Half of your country actively rallies on the idea of sending back Chinese, Indians, Mexicans and etc. I think you just live in a bubble or educated circles where that’s bot tolerated, but that’s not the experience of every single immigrant.
  - bitsage 2y ago
    Immigrants from the Global South definitely have it worse in his examples, the Denmark and Netherlands, where even liberal parties have turned against immigration. The Republicans want to deport illegal immigrants, starting with those who have criminal records, they haven’t pursued anything as perverse as Denmark’s “Ghetto Law”. PVV’s platform in the Netherlands is self-explanatory.
  - throwawayq3423 2y ago
    Immigration remains overwhelmingly popular in the US, much higher than other places in Europe and Asia. https://eig.org/hsi-voter-survey/ https://eig.org/hsi-voter-survey/
  - coolThingsFirst 2y ago
    I'm saying this as an immigrant, muslim name but white. You've no idea of the blatant ongoing racism in Europe that's so normalised it's basically a non issue. Like Zwarte Piet in Netherlands. The xenophobia in EU is head and shoulders above the US. I've lived in both places for years. In Germany for example you will never be considered German even if you were born in the country.

throwaway2037 2y ago

> The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans. I'm so tired of this trope on HN. It comes up over and over again, but never considers non-economic quality of life issues. Take for example public schools: They are awful in poor US states, and good-to-excellent in most highly developed European nations.

tokioyoyo 2y ago
I swear, none of these people have been to Louisiana, West Virginia, or any of the empty-looking cities that used to be lively 50 years ago. And I’m saying this as a person who isn’t American, but wanted to check it out myself before I made assumptions about the world.
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  Living in New Orleans right now I concur.
- throwawayq3423 2y ago
  Also GPD per capita is a terrible measure of standard of life considering 40k in Louisiana when you need to pay for most of health care education etc. isn't that much. The average life in these countries is undeniably better, even if poorer on paper.

systemf_omega 2y ago

Money buys you freedom to live you life anywhere you want, and do whatever you want. Do you think grinding away for low pay until your mid 60s, only to end up facing a collapsing pension system in your final years with little savings is the best way to spend your time on earth? Also how can a person that hasn't experienced the economic freedom the US provides to top talent accurately judge if their country of choice is better? I would like to see the statistics on SWEs that got wealthy in America, that regret moving to the states and would prefer to revert all those years. (I've lived in Europe for most of my life by the way. Lots of good places to retire, but mostly poor choices for spending my productive years there.)

tokioyoyo 2y ago
My friend, not everyone makes 150K/year. Like yes, we can do it, and choose our freedom because of the industry we live in. But you might be very disconnected from an average person’s life. Average or poorer person in the US does not get to choose where they retire either. I promise, 70 year retired old ojiisans over here in Tokyo don’t think their life would’ve been better if they lived in Oklahoma. You guys think everyone wants the same as you do, but it really isn’t like that.
- systemf_omega 2y ago
  > Average or poorer person in the US does not get to choose where they retire either. I've already addressed this in another thread. We're talking about brain drain. That means we are talking about highly skilled professionals for in-demand fields that can easily get this level of pay. A skilled senior SWE can very realistically demand $300k+ comp in US tech companies. In the startup space $150k + equity has become table stakes, and their hiring bar is often significantly lower. These are not anomalies, tech companies employ hundreds of thousands of engineers. > You guys think everyone wants the same as you do, but it really isn’t like that. Ok, so tell me, what are things people want? Because people in the aforementioned circles can retire in their 30s, and spend the rest of their lives traveling the world, taking care of their family, and pursing their passions without worries. Is that somehow controversial?

Ray20 2y ago

>There is a very big reason why there’s no more large swaths of immigrants from European and some Asian countries flocking into the US. Yeas, and this reason - US visa is one of the hardest to get.

tokai 2y ago
Denmark is much much harder than the US.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  How so?

coolThingsFirst 2y ago

It's not just money. There's another aspect which the US has that edges out the competition. The fact that everyone is treated as an American in the place without racism/xenophobia. This is a huge benefit over impenetrable countries like Denmark/Netherlands.

tokioyoyo 2y ago
Half of your country actively rallies on the idea of sending back Chinese, Indians, Mexicans and etc. I think you just live in a bubble or educated circles where that’s bot tolerated, but that’s not the experience of every single immigrant.
- bitsage 2y ago
  Immigrants from the Global South definitely have it worse in his examples, the Denmark and Netherlands, where even liberal parties have turned against immigration. The Republicans want to deport illegal immigrants, starting with those who have criminal records, they haven’t pursued anything as perverse as Denmark’s “Ghetto Law”. PVV’s platform in the Netherlands is self-explanatory.
- throwawayq3423 2y ago
  Immigration remains overwhelmingly popular in the US, much higher than other places in Europe and Asia. https://eig.org/hsi-voter-survey/ https://eig.org/hsi-voter-survey/
- coolThingsFirst 2y ago
  I'm saying this as an immigrant, muslim name but white. You've no idea of the blatant ongoing racism in Europe that's so normalised it's basically a non issue. Like Zwarte Piet in Netherlands. The xenophobia in EU is head and shoulders above the US. I've lived in both places for years. In Germany for example you will never be considered German even if you were born in the country.