6 ms·

Re mail deliverability. My experience so different than what you are saying that I take comments like this as regurgitating FUD at this point. Please do not do

by dizhn 2y ago

Re mail deliverability. My experience so different than what you are saying that I take comments like this as regurgitating FUD at this point. Please do not do it. Even google is mostly OK with just spf or dkim. It really isn't that hard to host your own email.

gbear605 2y ago
I’m on an open source email list, where a lot of users self host their email. They have all the correct things done by the book. But gmail sends them all to my spam box, despite my continuing to mark them as not spam. Some even don’t appear in the spam box, despite other users on the list receiving the emails just fine.
- therealpygon 2y ago
  Was your intention to prove the point about why it is important that more people host their own mail servers, or did you not realize you were?
  - gbear605 2y ago
    I wasn’t stating anything moral, just disagreeing with the claim that you can do “just spf or dkim” and not have any issues.
- ValdikSS 2y ago
  If this email list does not rewrite "from" header, and modifies the email contents, that's the issue. Unfortunately, many still do. Such setup just won't work in the modern email world anymore.
WhyNotHugo 2y ago
It’s mostly Microsoft that is a problem. I’ve heard of a couple of cases in the past years where recipients used Microsoft’s services and never received emails from small self-hosted servers (where SPF, DKIM, etc were all properly set up). If your client uses MS for email and doesn’t receive your invoices, it becomes a big deal.
jimmaswell 2y ago
I've had mild but inconsistent success sending to gmail with a perfect setup with 100% compliant dkim and spf, but Microsoft servers might be flat-out unreachable with no way to appeal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35691618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35691618 In the end I set up a gmail account just to route all my outgoing mail through, with a whitelist of specific servers I know won't reject me for no reason (i.e. a few very small email services or friends who also self-host). Defeats half of the purpose but what can you do? There's nothing else I can possibly do to make my emails reach hotmail inboxes - I've exhausted all of their phony support channels and advice articles and clearly they just want me to go away and stop self-hosting.
icameron 2y ago
They also want a PTR record on your IP to match your SMTP banner matching you hostname. Having an mx record for you sender domain also helps. Just sending form an IP address usually is tagged spam in my experience. Its weird their FAQ doesn't mention reverse DNS at all, its a very important step in having a good sender reputation.
- quesera 2y ago
  The PTR match is a signal, but it's not required. I send mail from several domains out of my mail server. The PTR record for that host actually doesn't match any of the forward hostnames.
kazinator 2y ago
I didn't say anything about it being hard; just that you may have to use some proxy for sending mail rather than doing it directly. This is not hard. It does mean that you are slightly less than perfectly self-hosted, in some sense. If your mail server is in a position that it can send mail directly to any mail exchanger in the world, rather than going through a forwarding host, there is the advantage in that it can use end-to-end TLS.

by dizhn 2y ago

gbear605 2y ago

I’m on an open source email list, where a lot of users self host their email. They have all the correct things done by the book. But gmail sends them all to my spam box, despite my continuing to mark them as not spam. Some even don’t appear in the spam box, despite other users on the list receiving the emails just fine.

therealpygon 2y ago
Was your intention to prove the point about why it is important that more people host their own mail servers, or did you not realize you were?
- gbear605 2y ago
  I wasn’t stating anything moral, just disagreeing with the claim that you can do “just spf or dkim” and not have any issues.
ValdikSS 2y ago
If this email list does not rewrite "from" header, and modifies the email contents, that's the issue. Unfortunately, many still do. Such setup just won't work in the modern email world anymore.

WhyNotHugo 2y ago

It’s mostly Microsoft that is a problem. I’ve heard of a couple of cases in the past years where recipients used Microsoft’s services and never received emails from small self-hosted servers (where SPF, DKIM, etc were all properly set up). If your client uses MS for email and doesn’t receive your invoices, it becomes a big deal.

jimmaswell 2y ago

I've had mild but inconsistent success sending to gmail with a perfect setup with 100% compliant dkim and spf, but Microsoft servers might be flat-out unreachable with no way to appeal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35691618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35691618 In the end I set up a gmail account just to route all my outgoing mail through, with a whitelist of specific servers I know won't reject me for no reason (i.e. a few very small email services or friends who also self-host). Defeats half of the purpose but what can you do? There's nothing else I can possibly do to make my emails reach hotmail inboxes - I've exhausted all of their phony support channels and advice articles and clearly they just want me to go away and stop self-hosting.

icameron 2y ago

They also want a PTR record on your IP to match your SMTP banner matching you hostname. Having an mx record for you sender domain also helps. Just sending form an IP address usually is tagged spam in my experience. Its weird their FAQ doesn't mention reverse DNS at all, its a very important step in having a good sender reputation.

quesera 2y ago
The PTR match is a signal, but it's not required. I send mail from several domains out of my mail server. The PTR record for that host actually doesn't match any of the forward hostnames.

kazinator 2y ago

I didn't say anything about it being hard; just that you may have to use some proxy for sending mail rather than doing it directly. This is not hard. It does mean that you are slightly less than perfectly self-hosted, in some sense. If your mail server is in a position that it can send mail directly to any mail exchanger in the world, rather than going through a forwarding host, there is the advantage in that it can use end-to-end TLS.