3 ms·

The US is already the brain drain destination #1. Nowhere else can highly skilled people generate comparable levels of income.

lxgr 2y ago
Adjust for living expenses and the situation already looks very different. Then adjust for quality of life...
- systemf_omega 2y ago
  This has been done before, and America comes out consistently on top. Even the median purchasing power parity (PPP) in the US is frequently ranked highest in the world. The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans. This gets amplified if you're a highly sought after professional. Top senior engineers are getting paid $500k-$1M in the US. These are figures you'll never find in Europe or Asia, not even close. Put on top the rising costs of living, and 45% top tax brackets (France, UK, Germany, Spain), the US is incomparable.
  - lxgr 2y ago
    Yes, if you're a professional in high demand, you can live a great life in the US. But how does the quality of life of everybody below the median look like? > This gets amplified if you're a highly sought after professional. Top senior engineers are getting paid $500k-$1M in the US. These are figures you'll never find in Europe or Asia, not even close. But what does that buy you really, in a high cost of living area? What if you ever want to do something else? What if demands for your profession change? How expensive is it to raise children? I have first hand experience of both the US and Europe, and while nominal salaries are (much) lower in the latter, subjective feelings of safety and quality of life seem much more comparable than the numbers might make you believe. That said, the US system of highly rewarding relatively few people at the top certainly motivates the masses like few others: Most people are bad at statistics and like playing the lottery.
    - systemf_omega 2y ago
      > But how does the quality of life of everybody below the median look like? This discussion is about whether or not the US is a top brain drain destination. That means we're talking about exceptionally skilled or promising scientists/engineers/doctors at the top of their field. I'm not claiming life is great for everyone in America. I agree it isn't. > But what does that buy you really, in a high cost of living area? Look at the PPP in CA. It buys you a lot. People in HCOL cities that manage their finances well can become multi-millionaires in their early 30s. They will already be able to retire in 99% of the world, with enough savings to lead incredibly comfortable and luxurious lives. Meanwhile, people in Europe have on average lower assets and savings, low levels of home ownership, and lower likelihood to retire early at a comparable standard of living. Not to mention the pension crisis many of them are or will be facing in the near future.
      - lxgr 2y ago
        > This discussion is about whether or not the US is a top brain drain destination. And my point is that this is increasingly the case due to a combination of inertia and people’s bad EV calculations: > They will already be able to retire in 99% of the world, with enough savings to lead incredibly comfortable and luxurious lives. Just demographically, this will never be viable for a large fraction of the population, regardless of any economic concerns. This leaves truly exceptional talents, and those that incorrectly assume that that’s them. And this isn’t even considering how AI is potentially going to shake up knowledge work.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Have you lived in Denmark, Japan, China, Netherlands and some other countries in the past 10-15 years? I really don’t think you weigh in people’s personal preferences and general quality of life into your equations. There is a very big reason why there’s no more large swaths of immigrants from European and some Asian countries flocking into the US. Yes there is some, but the times when it was objectively much better to live and grow in the states is in the past. Money is really not the only thing people care about, but it’s hard to understand for people for whom money is the only thing they care about.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      > The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans. I'm so tired of this trope on HN. It comes up over and over again, but never considers non-economic quality of life issues. Take for example public schools: They are awful in poor US states, and good-to-excellent in most highly developed European nations.
      - tokioyoyo 2y ago
        I swear, none of these people have been to Louisiana, West Virginia, or any of the empty-looking cities that used to be lively 50 years ago. And I’m saying this as a person who isn’t American, but wanted to check it out myself before I made assumptions about the world.
        selimthegrim 2y ago
        Living in New Orleans right now I concur.
        throwawayq3423 2y ago
        Also GPD per capita is a terrible measure of standard of life considering 40k in Louisiana when you need to pay for most of health care education etc. isn't that much. The average life in these countries is undeniably better, even if poorer on paper.
    - 2y ago
  - bigbacaloa 2y ago
    [dead]
Perenti 2y ago
Was. Was the brain drain destination #1. It's been Europe, India and SE Asia for a while now. Not everyone with a brain just wants more money. Some want to do interesting research that doesn't have a short term commercialisation strategy.
- frontfor 2y ago
  Do you have the statistics to back this up?
  - cookiemonsieur 2y ago
    Do you have the statistics to back up the opposite argument ?
cuteboy19 2y ago
a chinese student graduating from Harvard is 60% likely to voluntarily return to china. its on borrowed time now
Freedom2 2y ago
I agree. One other thing that the US has that no other country has is freedom of speech. My entire family was killed in my previous country for daring to speak up against the leader at the time. It has something that has shook me to my core. Now, even to this day, I cannot find another country besides the US who not only respects freedom of speech, but encourages it among its residents. I will not move to another country no matter how drastic it gets.
- cookiemonsieur 2y ago
  > I agree. One other thing that the US has that no other country has is freedom of speech. Unless you speak ill of america's greatest ally.
- sph 2y ago
  This comment is not going to age well. Aren't colleges and universities liable for any "illegal" protest on their grounds, since yesterday? Whether a protest is illegal or not will be decided by the local politburo office.
- Hikikomori 2y ago
  Not under this president.
impossiblefork 2y ago
I'm not convinced that that's sustainable though, and I think it might be an artifact of the dollar reserve currency status etc., because US firms cost more for a given yearly profit. Just look at Boeing vs Airbus. I also lived better in Sweden when I was a PhD student, than I would have if I went to Washington and took an H1B job for 100k. I think the cutoff would be at somewhere soon above 120k. Maybe at 130k-140k, I would be able to live in Washington approximately as well as I could live in Sweden as a PhD student, but it would substantially more stressful. Maybe 130-140k isn't much to long-term Googlers, but I think this is closer to salaries that people actually pay for H1Bs than these 500k+ salaries. The built environment in the US doesn't really correspond to the nominal prices, so in a way, America is only interesting economically if you're planning to go back home.

lxgr 2y ago

Adjust for living expenses and the situation already looks very different. Then adjust for quality of life...

systemf_omega 2y ago
This has been done before, and America comes out consistently on top. Even the median purchasing power parity (PPP) in the US is frequently ranked highest in the world. The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans. This gets amplified if you're a highly sought after professional. Top senior engineers are getting paid $500k-$1M in the US. These are figures you'll never find in Europe or Asia, not even close. Put on top the rising costs of living, and 45% top tax brackets (France, UK, Germany, Spain), the US is incomparable.
- lxgr 2y ago
  Yes, if you're a professional in high demand, you can live a great life in the US. But how does the quality of life of everybody below the median look like? > This gets amplified if you're a highly sought after professional. Top senior engineers are getting paid $500k-$1M in the US. These are figures you'll never find in Europe or Asia, not even close. But what does that buy you really, in a high cost of living area? What if you ever want to do something else? What if demands for your profession change? How expensive is it to raise children? I have first hand experience of both the US and Europe, and while nominal salaries are (much) lower in the latter, subjective feelings of safety and quality of life seem much more comparable than the numbers might make you believe. That said, the US system of highly rewarding relatively few people at the top certainly motivates the masses like few others: Most people are bad at statistics and like playing the lottery.
  - systemf_omega 2y ago
    > But how does the quality of life of everybody below the median look like? This discussion is about whether or not the US is a top brain drain destination. That means we're talking about exceptionally skilled or promising scientists/engineers/doctors at the top of their field. I'm not claiming life is great for everyone in America. I agree it isn't. > But what does that buy you really, in a high cost of living area? Look at the PPP in CA. It buys you a lot. People in HCOL cities that manage their finances well can become multi-millionaires in their early 30s. They will already be able to retire in 99% of the world, with enough savings to lead incredibly comfortable and luxurious lives. Meanwhile, people in Europe have on average lower assets and savings, low levels of home ownership, and lower likelihood to retire early at a comparable standard of living. Not to mention the pension crisis many of them are or will be facing in the near future.
    - lxgr 2y ago
      > This discussion is about whether or not the US is a top brain drain destination. And my point is that this is increasingly the case due to a combination of inertia and people’s bad EV calculations: > They will already be able to retire in 99% of the world, with enough savings to lead incredibly comfortable and luxurious lives. Just demographically, this will never be viable for a large fraction of the population, regardless of any economic concerns. This leaves truly exceptional talents, and those that incorrectly assume that that’s them. And this isn’t even considering how AI is potentially going to shake up knowledge work.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Have you lived in Denmark, Japan, China, Netherlands and some other countries in the past 10-15 years? I really don’t think you weigh in people’s personal preferences and general quality of life into your equations. There is a very big reason why there’s no more large swaths of immigrants from European and some Asian countries flocking into the US. Yes there is some, but the times when it was objectively much better to live and grow in the states is in the past. Money is really not the only thing people care about, but it’s hard to understand for people for whom money is the only thing they care about.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans. I'm so tired of this trope on HN. It comes up over and over again, but never considers non-economic quality of life issues. Take for example public schools: They are awful in poor US states, and good-to-excellent in most highly developed European nations.
    - tokioyoyo 2y ago
      I swear, none of these people have been to Louisiana, West Virginia, or any of the empty-looking cities that used to be lively 50 years ago. And I’m saying this as a person who isn’t American, but wanted to check it out myself before I made assumptions about the world.
      - selimthegrim 2y ago
        Living in New Orleans right now I concur.
      - throwawayq3423 2y ago
        Also GPD per capita is a terrible measure of standard of life considering 40k in Louisiana when you need to pay for most of health care education etc. isn't that much. The average life in these countries is undeniably better, even if poorer on paper.
  - 2y ago
- bigbacaloa 2y ago
  [dead]

Perenti 2y ago

Was. Was the brain drain destination #1. It's been Europe, India and SE Asia for a while now. Not everyone with a brain just wants more money. Some want to do interesting research that doesn't have a short term commercialisation strategy.

frontfor 2y ago
Do you have the statistics to back this up?
- cookiemonsieur 2y ago
  Do you have the statistics to back up the opposite argument ?

cuteboy19 2y ago

a chinese student graduating from Harvard is 60% likely to voluntarily return to china. its on borrowed time now

Freedom2 2y ago

I agree. One other thing that the US has that no other country has is freedom of speech. My entire family was killed in my previous country for daring to speak up against the leader at the time. It has something that has shook me to my core. Now, even to this day, I cannot find another country besides the US who not only respects freedom of speech, but encourages it among its residents. I will not move to another country no matter how drastic it gets.

cookiemonsieur 2y ago
> I agree. One other thing that the US has that no other country has is freedom of speech. Unless you speak ill of america's greatest ally.
sph 2y ago
This comment is not going to age well. Aren't colleges and universities liable for any "illegal" protest on their grounds, since yesterday? Whether a protest is illegal or not will be decided by the local politburo office.
Hikikomori 2y ago
Not under this president.

impossiblefork 2y ago

I'm not convinced that that's sustainable though, and I think it might be an artifact of the dollar reserve currency status etc., because US firms cost more for a given yearly profit. Just look at Boeing vs Airbus. I also lived better in Sweden when I was a PhD student, than I would have if I went to Washington and took an H1B job for 100k. I think the cutoff would be at somewhere soon above 120k. Maybe at 130k-140k, I would be able to live in Washington approximately as well as I could live in Sweden as a PhD student, but it would substantially more stressful. Maybe 130-140k isn't much to long-term Googlers, but I think this is closer to salaries that people actually pay for H1Bs than these 500k+ salaries. The built environment in the US doesn't really correspond to the nominal prices, so in a way, America is only interesting economically if you're planning to go back home.