5 ms·

This just isn't true, of course you can, you just need to use a hosting provider or ISP that allows it. Plenty do.

kazinator 2y ago
It's not whether the hosting provider or ISP allows it, it's whether the address they give you has reputation so that mail servers all over the world allow connections from it.
- tete 2y ago
  tl;dr: If you set up an email server. You just send a few emails to gmail, etc. and you'll know if they are accepted or not. If yes you are set, if not you investigate the problem, maybe really try another IP and eventually fix the issue. It's not like all of a sudden your email becomes undeliverable, unless you start sending spam. Imagine what it would mean for all the people using the email address of a small ISP, some university, etc. Sorry, but that's FUDish. The reality is if you do a proper email setup (DKIM, Reverse IP, etc.) you will be fine. If you happen to actually get an IP that somewhat recently happened to be an email server, that was also sent out spam, which isn't something that's likely at all then you'll notice very quickly (just send an email to to gmail, etc.) and what you'll do then is tell your hosting provider you'd like another IP address, because it's not fit for your purposes. I've been running, moving, switching IPs, providers, domains since 2005 and still am and there is just SO MUCH FUD. It's not hard. It's a one time thing. Personally I never ran into IP reputation issues ever. These are email addresses used in a professional capacity (B2B, communication with governments, etc.) as well as private use ones. Pretty much every ISP, every university, etc. runs their own email server. Many companies do. Many private people do. I have run them on the side for those 20 years now, partly as a hobby and so far the uptime was higher than Gmail's and since I use them for private, professional and sometimes for government communication I am dogfooding it and I would have very much noticed if anything bounced. I have gotten bounces when a setup was initially broken, like when I do something like sending a test email to Gmail and that was off. The reality is that IP and domain reputation aren't really great ways to filter spam anyways. Yes, it adds, but what makes you think that nobody sends emails from Gmail, a university or other stuff? What makes you think that spammers use static domains, etc. Heck, not even DKIM and SPF are any guarantee. People will spam you from servers with extremely good reputation. Looking at my spam box most of them are from situations where accounts obviously simply haven't been blocked yet. No serious spam filtering is done with IPs or domains being an "all or nothing" thing. Also it's a two-way street. If a user of some email provider doesn't get their email and it becomes known people will be wary of it. And nobody expects the email landscape to stay static. There are newsletter and transactional email services all over the place, lots of marketing platforms running their own email servers and so on. It's not like everyone does something magic, nor does everyone have connections, money or time to talk to all these companies. An email service not accepting emails won't exist for long. And something that's also important to realize: If you do start using a transactional email service they oftentimes will make you pay EXTRA for a custom IP so you DO NOT share it with others, so you get BETTER reputation than the cheap one. And you configure your own domain with it. So why wouldn't these emails get delivered? And many of those don't run their own data centers and not all of them have their own IP blocks (though some have). It's just if you couldn't even do regular private emailing, emails would not be the thing every website uses for login and communication.
  - kazinator 2y ago
    If you think that you are "set" when your self-hosted setup passes the test case of communicating with Gmail and a few other big providers, you're saying that it doesn't matter if you cannot communicate with smaller providers, including other self-hosted guys like you. If they have any trouble reaching you, why they should just effin' use gmail! That works fine! > The reality is if you do a proper email setup (DKIM, Reverse IP, etc.) you will be fine. You're not getting reverse DNS on a dynamic home IP. > Pretty much every ISP, every university, etc. runs their own email server. Yes? And what did I say: if your ISP has mail servers for you, it can simplify things greatly if you use them.
    - vanviegen 2y ago
      > you're saying that it doesn't matter if you cannot communicate with smaller providers Smaller providers will generally not black hole legitimate message like Hotmail does. They have (paying) customers awaiting those messages. Junk folder? Sure, that can happen sometimes. > You're not getting reverse DNS on a dynamic home IP. I don't think anyone here is suggesting running a mail server on a dynamic IP. > And what did I say: if your ISP has mail servers for you, it can simplify things greatly if you use them. Only if you want to be using their domain and if you're not sending (too many) automated messages.
      - kazinator 2y ago
        Running a mail server dynamic IP is the primary self hosting option for most people. I've been doing it without problems for 15 years now. > Only if you want to be using their domain No, that's simply not how SMTP routing works.
        vanviegen 2y ago
        > No, that's simply not how SMTP routing works. So you want some third party provider to be delivering mail on behalf of a domain for which they don't have even have the basics like DKIM and SPF set up, and hope for better deliverability than you could easily obtain with your own server?
- dwedge 2y ago
  I setup mox a year ago with a new domain on a new server and delivered straight to Gmail within half an hour.
  - kazinator 2y ago
    "The deliver-to-gmail test case passed; ship it!"
    - account42 2y ago
      Pretty much, yes. Other providers are small enough (except for maybe Microsoft for business) that it's generally their problem if they accept less than Gmail.
      - kazinator 2y ago
        If any of them hold the mailbox of someone that you or one of your users needs to reach, it quickly becomes your problem. Now suppose you contact that server and complain about being rejected. Wouldn't it be ironic if they respond like this: "We receive e-mails from gmail just fine; fix the problem yourself, or use gmail". This is how self-hosted e-mail people throw each other under a bus and let gmail win, while pretending to hold self-hosting as a cherished value. (They would most likely be right about having to fix the problem yourself, unless they imposed some locally authored and highly unreasonable/dichkeadish filtering rule. The superfluous rhetoric about gmail would be almost as obnoxious as their rule, though.)

It's not whether the hosting provider or ISP allows it, it's whether the address they give you has reputation so that mail servers all over the world allow connections from it.

tete 2y ago
tl;dr: If you set up an email server. You just send a few emails to gmail, etc. and you'll know if they are accepted or not. If yes you are set, if not you investigate the problem, maybe really try another IP and eventually fix the issue. It's not like all of a sudden your email becomes undeliverable, unless you start sending spam. Imagine what it would mean for all the people using the email address of a small ISP, some university, etc. Sorry, but that's FUDish. The reality is if you do a proper email setup (DKIM, Reverse IP, etc.) you will be fine. If you happen to actually get an IP that somewhat recently happened to be an email server, that was also sent out spam, which isn't something that's likely at all then you'll notice very quickly (just send an email to to gmail, etc.) and what you'll do then is tell your hosting provider you'd like another IP address, because it's not fit for your purposes. I've been running, moving, switching IPs, providers, domains since 2005 and still am and there is just SO MUCH FUD. It's not hard. It's a one time thing. Personally I never ran into IP reputation issues ever. These are email addresses used in a professional capacity (B2B, communication with governments, etc.) as well as private use ones. Pretty much every ISP, every university, etc. runs their own email server. Many companies do. Many private people do. I have run them on the side for those 20 years now, partly as a hobby and so far the uptime was higher than Gmail's and since I use them for private, professional and sometimes for government communication I am dogfooding it and I would have very much noticed if anything bounced. I have gotten bounces when a setup was initially broken, like when I do something like sending a test email to Gmail and that was off. The reality is that IP and domain reputation aren't really great ways to filter spam anyways. Yes, it adds, but what makes you think that nobody sends emails from Gmail, a university or other stuff? What makes you think that spammers use static domains, etc. Heck, not even DKIM and SPF are any guarantee. People will spam you from servers with extremely good reputation. Looking at my spam box most of them are from situations where accounts obviously simply haven't been blocked yet. No serious spam filtering is done with IPs or domains being an "all or nothing" thing. Also it's a two-way street. If a user of some email provider doesn't get their email and it becomes known people will be wary of it. And nobody expects the email landscape to stay static. There are newsletter and transactional email services all over the place, lots of marketing platforms running their own email servers and so on. It's not like everyone does something magic, nor does everyone have connections, money or time to talk to all these companies. An email service not accepting emails won't exist for long. And something that's also important to realize: If you do start using a transactional email service they oftentimes will make you pay EXTRA for a custom IP so you DO NOT share it with others, so you get BETTER reputation than the cheap one. And you configure your own domain with it. So why wouldn't these emails get delivered? And many of those don't run their own data centers and not all of them have their own IP blocks (though some have). It's just if you couldn't even do regular private emailing, emails would not be the thing every website uses for login and communication.
- kazinator 2y ago
  If you think that you are "set" when your self-hosted setup passes the test case of communicating with Gmail and a few other big providers, you're saying that it doesn't matter if you cannot communicate with smaller providers, including other self-hosted guys like you. If they have any trouble reaching you, why they should just effin' use gmail! That works fine! > The reality is if you do a proper email setup (DKIM, Reverse IP, etc.) you will be fine. You're not getting reverse DNS on a dynamic home IP. > Pretty much every ISP, every university, etc. runs their own email server. Yes? And what did I say: if your ISP has mail servers for you, it can simplify things greatly if you use them.
  - vanviegen 2y ago
    > you're saying that it doesn't matter if you cannot communicate with smaller providers Smaller providers will generally not black hole legitimate message like Hotmail does. They have (paying) customers awaiting those messages. Junk folder? Sure, that can happen sometimes. > You're not getting reverse DNS on a dynamic home IP. I don't think anyone here is suggesting running a mail server on a dynamic IP. > And what did I say: if your ISP has mail servers for you, it can simplify things greatly if you use them. Only if you want to be using their domain and if you're not sending (too many) automated messages.
    - kazinator 2y ago
      Running a mail server dynamic IP is the primary self hosting option for most people. I've been doing it without problems for 15 years now. > Only if you want to be using their domain No, that's simply not how SMTP routing works.
      - vanviegen 2y ago
        > No, that's simply not how SMTP routing works. So you want some third party provider to be delivering mail on behalf of a domain for which they don't have even have the basics like DKIM and SPF set up, and hope for better deliverability than you could easily obtain with your own server?
dwedge 2y ago
I setup mox a year ago with a new domain on a new server and delivered straight to Gmail within half an hour.
- kazinator 2y ago
  "The deliver-to-gmail test case passed; ship it!"
  - account42 2y ago
    Pretty much, yes. Other providers are small enough (except for maybe Microsoft for business) that it's generally their problem if they accept less than Gmail.
    - kazinator 2y ago
      If any of them hold the mailbox of someone that you or one of your users needs to reach, it quickly becomes your problem. Now suppose you contact that server and complain about being rejected. Wouldn't it be ironic if they respond like this: "We receive e-mails from gmail just fine; fix the problem yourself, or use gmail". This is how self-hosted e-mail people throw each other under a bus and let gmail win, while pretending to hold self-hosting as a cherished value. (They would most likely be right about having to fix the problem yourself, unless they imposed some locally authored and highly unreasonable/dichkeadish filtering rule. The superfluous rhetoric about gmail would be almost as obnoxious as their rule, though.)