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>If your boss has a reasonably-sized team but is spending their day writing code They dont need to spend all day writing code, they need to spend their nights

>If your boss has a reasonably-sized team but is spending their day writing code They dont need to spend all day writing code, they need to spend their nights and weekends making sure their skills dont rust.

joeblubaugh 2y ago
> they need to spend their nights and weekends making sure their skills dont rust. Life is more than work
- protocolture 2y ago
  Yeah, theres also personal and professional development.
  - KittenInABox 2y ago
    There's also maybe being an involved parent. Or a caretaker.
    - locusofself 2y ago
      Thank you
GlacierFox 2y ago
So you want them to come to work and do their job, then go home and waste their nights and weekends doing a variation of your job? How about, a proportion of their work day must be allocated to keeping up to date with the tools behind the thing they're attempting to manage?
- tyre 2y ago
  > waste their nights and weekends doing a variation of your job Why is that a waste? I'm an EM and code both at work and on nights/weekends. During the work day, I spend most of my time helping other people directly (code review, talking through designs, 1:1s, xfn collab, etc.) To build larger things, I do them nights and weekends. It's not a waste. I'm better as an EM because of it. And being a better EM gets me more of what I want (fixing healthcare). Not everyone can do this—and at some point in my life maybe I can't either—but it absolutely makes me better at my job. I don't consider that a waste.
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    How are you a better EM because you code nights / weekends? Genuinely curious, as I have to choose managing or continuing as an engineer pretty soon
    - tyre 2y ago
      Code review, respect from engineers, directly feeling the pain points in our development process, I can commit small features strategically (like if a partner team isn't getting a lot of love but we're under-resourced), better partner pairing with engineers, balancing tech debt with new features, shipping directly to users builds empathy
      - windward 2y ago
        >I can commit small features strategically (like if a partner team isn't getting a lot of love but we're under-resourced) Like a 10X (cost) intern?
        cianuro_ 2y ago
        Not sure if I read this wrong. Are you making the assumption he, as an EM that codes, has the coding skills of an intern?
        windward 2y ago
        Skill is irrelevant: the output is a small, low-priority feature.
    - halfcat 2y ago
      Here’s some good food for thought on the engineer/manager decision, [0] and [1]. Good luck! [0] https://charity.wtf/2017/05/11/the-engineer-manager-pendulum/ https://charity.wtf/2017/05/11/the-engineer-manager-pendulum... [1] https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pendulum-or-the-ladder/ https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pe...
- halfcat 2y ago
  > So you want them to come to work and do their job, then go home and waste their nights and weekends doing a variation of your job? No. This would be a person who already happens to spend their nights and weekends coding. There are plenty of people who like building things, whether it’s woodworking or software. > How about, a proportion of their work day must be allocated to keeping up to date with the tools behind the thing they're attempting to manage? Maybe, but it would need to be solving a real problem the team has, not just leetcode or some random thing. Part of sharpening the saw is the struggle, and subsequent overcoming, which requires solving a real problem. But you also don’t want a manager owning a critical path project as the developer. Part of a manager’s effectiveness is being available. That doesn’t work in crunch time when a project needs head down coding all week to meet a deadline. But if a manager is building a trading bot or chess engine on their own time, they will encounter all kinds of real world challenges.
  - vasco 2y ago
    If you get what you want you'll have a shitty Pull Request for you to review on Monday mornings with your eager boss waiting for your approval on the PR.
- protocolture 2y ago
  However the professional development is achieved is fine, as long as it is achieved. But most people I know do it outside of business hours.
ssalazar 2y ago
Counterpoint: I don't want a boss who is so detached from the rest of life & society that they have copious free time on nights and weekends to practice coding.
asdf6969 2y ago
Do you read books about management in your evenings?
- protocolture 2y ago
  No but I do take time in my afternoons to learn new skills.

joeblubaugh 2y ago

> they need to spend their nights and weekends making sure their skills dont rust. Life is more than work

protocolture 2y ago
Yeah, theres also personal and professional development.
- KittenInABox 2y ago
  There's also maybe being an involved parent. Or a caretaker.
  - locusofself 2y ago
    Thank you

GlacierFox 2y ago

So you want them to come to work and do their job, then go home and waste their nights and weekends doing a variation of your job? How about, a proportion of their work day must be allocated to keeping up to date with the tools behind the thing they're attempting to manage?

tyre 2y ago
> waste their nights and weekends doing a variation of your job Why is that a waste? I'm an EM and code both at work and on nights/weekends. During the work day, I spend most of my time helping other people directly (code review, talking through designs, 1:1s, xfn collab, etc.) To build larger things, I do them nights and weekends. It's not a waste. I'm better as an EM because of it. And being a better EM gets me more of what I want (fixing healthcare). Not everyone can do this—and at some point in my life maybe I can't either—but it absolutely makes me better at my job. I don't consider that a waste.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  How are you a better EM because you code nights / weekends? Genuinely curious, as I have to choose managing or continuing as an engineer pretty soon
  - tyre 2y ago
    Code review, respect from engineers, directly feeling the pain points in our development process, I can commit small features strategically (like if a partner team isn't getting a lot of love but we're under-resourced), better partner pairing with engineers, balancing tech debt with new features, shipping directly to users builds empathy
    - windward 2y ago
      >I can commit small features strategically (like if a partner team isn't getting a lot of love but we're under-resourced) Like a 10X (cost) intern?
      - cianuro_ 2y ago
        Not sure if I read this wrong. Are you making the assumption he, as an EM that codes, has the coding skills of an intern?
        windward 2y ago
        Skill is irrelevant: the output is a small, low-priority feature.
  - halfcat 2y ago
    Here’s some good food for thought on the engineer/manager decision, [0] and [1]. Good luck! [0] https://charity.wtf/2017/05/11/the-engineer-manager-pendulum/ https://charity.wtf/2017/05/11/the-engineer-manager-pendulum... [1] https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pendulum-or-the-ladder/ https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pe...
halfcat 2y ago
> So you want them to come to work and do their job, then go home and waste their nights and weekends doing a variation of your job? No. This would be a person who already happens to spend their nights and weekends coding. There are plenty of people who like building things, whether it’s woodworking or software. > How about, a proportion of their work day must be allocated to keeping up to date with the tools behind the thing they're attempting to manage? Maybe, but it would need to be solving a real problem the team has, not just leetcode or some random thing. Part of sharpening the saw is the struggle, and subsequent overcoming, which requires solving a real problem. But you also don’t want a manager owning a critical path project as the developer. Part of a manager’s effectiveness is being available. That doesn’t work in crunch time when a project needs head down coding all week to meet a deadline. But if a manager is building a trading bot or chess engine on their own time, they will encounter all kinds of real world challenges.
- vasco 2y ago
  If you get what you want you'll have a shitty Pull Request for you to review on Monday mornings with your eager boss waiting for your approval on the PR.
protocolture 2y ago
However the professional development is achieved is fine, as long as it is achieved. But most people I know do it outside of business hours.

ssalazar 2y ago

Counterpoint: I don't want a boss who is so detached from the rest of life & society that they have copious free time on nights and weekends to practice coding.

asdf6969 2y ago

Do you read books about management in your evenings?

protocolture 2y ago
No but I do take time in my afternoons to learn new skills.