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>and you think the Qualcomm RTOS can do what exactly? Well that's the point, it's a black box so there's no telling what it can and can't do. There's what Qual

>and you think the Qualcomm RTOS can do what exactly? Well that's the point, it's a black box so there's no telling what it can and can't do. There's what Qualcomm says it can do, and then there's what it can do.

grayhatter 2y ago
Then that's a really weak point. There's a lot of things we know it can't do. It can't break the encryption between software, and remote servers. It also can't cause the phone to levitate. It also can't recharge my battery. As a rule, I don't worry unlikely hypotheticals, because doing so is a needless denial of service on my brain. Saying it's a blackbox is true, but that doesn't mean you get to invent random things to worry about, without direct evidence it's connected to the specific device we're discussing. But do think I should at least try to meet you half way, so maybe I can preempt a few things that used to be true or possible. The baseband also can't install software into my android OS. It also can't directly read memory from my phone. It can't directly control my phone's bootup. These are things poorly designed phones used to be able to do, that aren't possible on the Pixel line of hardware because it was designed to prevent them. That's why GraphineOS targets the pixel line. Because it's hardware is designed in a way to enable a secure device.
- nehal3m 2y ago
  >Saying it's a blackbox is true, but that doesn't mean you get to invent random things to worry about, without direct evidence it's connected to the specific device we're discussing. True, but the corollary is that you also can't say it's not doing certain things. Just because you currently don't have evidence of something happening does not rule out the possibility, but I must admit I am ignorant about the specifics of how the Pixel's RTOS is implemented. So I'm genuinely inquiring: Could it be sending your GPS location to some entity without notifying the GPOS?
  - grayhatter 2y ago
    > So I'm genuinely inquiring: Could it be sending your GPS location to some entity without notifying the GPOS? With very low confidence, I believe for chips that put GPS on the baseband, yes it can because that's required for E911. (I don't know what the pixel line does) Can it then transmit that location using the baseband without you being able to tell? I would assume so, and that's a case where it's safe to assume it can. Unfortunately, that doesn't matter much. Your location is also trivially known by your ISP by triangulating connection strength. Often this can be more accurate than GPS in many real cases. The threat/risk that's able to compromise the baseband SoC, is more easily able to compromise your ISP. And thus the phone simply existing is a risk to location privacy, given a perfectly secure ideal baseband SoC. Can that be used to uniquely identify you, and correlate it with your other actions. That's not really a question I'm prepared to answer in a HN comment (because I have to draw that line somewhere for my own limited sanity), so.... specifically yes, but generally, no. That is to say, it is possible given sufficient resources. But it's non-trivial to do in bulk. And there are many many easier and cheaper ways, so https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ applies here too.

grayhatter 2y ago

Then that's a really weak point. There's a lot of things we know it can't do. It can't break the encryption between software, and remote servers. It also can't cause the phone to levitate. It also can't recharge my battery. As a rule, I don't worry unlikely hypotheticals, because doing so is a needless denial of service on my brain. Saying it's a blackbox is true, but that doesn't mean you get to invent random things to worry about, without direct evidence it's connected to the specific device we're discussing. But do think I should at least try to meet you half way, so maybe I can preempt a few things that used to be true or possible. The baseband also can't install software into my android OS. It also can't directly read memory from my phone. It can't directly control my phone's bootup. These are things poorly designed phones used to be able to do, that aren't possible on the Pixel line of hardware because it was designed to prevent them. That's why GraphineOS targets the pixel line. Because it's hardware is designed in a way to enable a secure device.

nehal3m 2y ago
>Saying it's a blackbox is true, but that doesn't mean you get to invent random things to worry about, without direct evidence it's connected to the specific device we're discussing. True, but the corollary is that you also can't say it's not doing certain things. Just because you currently don't have evidence of something happening does not rule out the possibility, but I must admit I am ignorant about the specifics of how the Pixel's RTOS is implemented. So I'm genuinely inquiring: Could it be sending your GPS location to some entity without notifying the GPOS?
- grayhatter 2y ago
  > So I'm genuinely inquiring: Could it be sending your GPS location to some entity without notifying the GPOS? With very low confidence, I believe for chips that put GPS on the baseband, yes it can because that's required for E911. (I don't know what the pixel line does) Can it then transmit that location using the baseband without you being able to tell? I would assume so, and that's a case where it's safe to assume it can. Unfortunately, that doesn't matter much. Your location is also trivially known by your ISP by triangulating connection strength. Often this can be more accurate than GPS in many real cases. The threat/risk that's able to compromise the baseband SoC, is more easily able to compromise your ISP. And thus the phone simply existing is a risk to location privacy, given a perfectly secure ideal baseband SoC. Can that be used to uniquely identify you, and correlate it with your other actions. That's not really a question I'm prepared to answer in a HN comment (because I have to draw that line somewhere for my own limited sanity), so.... specifically yes, but generally, no. That is to say, it is possible given sufficient resources. But it's non-trivial to do in bulk. And there are many many easier and cheaper ways, so https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ applies here too.