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It seems like it's perhaps the natural progression of an extreme sense of individualism. In an age where individual choice is elevated to the highest level poss

It seems like it's perhaps the natural progression of an extreme sense of individualism. In an age where individual choice is elevated to the highest level possible, it naturally follows that someone should have the option to end their lives whenever they want. I think this view falls short because it seems to count the chances of someone making an uninformed mistake as an acceptable consequence of preserving individual choice. Personally, I can't agree with this view. I often state that my desire is to protect and preserve life when it comes to suicide and am met with backlash over "inserting myself into other people's lives." When the reality is I've been close to several suicides (due to my community role) where the general community consensus was that the person was dealing with a complex mental health issue and the medical system more or less failed them. I don't propose to win anybody to my side, but I think the whole topic requires a lot of nuance and shouldn't be simplified.

Flimm 2y ago
Really well said. It is an excruciating situation to be in. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
volemo 2y ago
You say the whole topic requires a lot of nuance and shouldn't be simplified and I say (while agreeing with you in the general case) there is no nuance when it comes to relieving a person from suffering. I get you've witnessed suicides that shouldn't have happened [1], but I had to watch a close relative of mine be in a state of excruciating pain for weeks while slowly dying from cancer. No drugs would help her. She lay there, first screaming, then begging to die, then when the agony became unbearable she'd lie there in between consciousness and unconsciousness, unable to perceive so much of it. From time to time her mind would clear up and I'd see the immense pain in her eyes. The country I'm from doesn't allow euthanasia even in such extreme cases. In that moment, I hated the doctors so much — despite knowing their hands were tied. Even more, I resented the society that would prohibit helping someone in such a state due to its idealistic views of the value of life — views that had never been exposed to the horrors I'd seen. Perhaps you'd argue this too was a case of the medical system failing the person, but I believe that, lacking the knowledge or technology to truly help someone whose illness has progressed so far, we must help as much as we can, even if it means living with the thought of taking someone's life. Sorry for the stream of consciousness; I don't know how to wrap this up. [1]: I say as if there are suicides that should happen. ._\
- sepositus 2y ago
  > there is no nuance when it comes to relieving a person from suffering What if the person is suffering from a mental health crisis that modern medicines can treat? I'm not trying to be obtuse, and I understand what you mean by suffering is akin to what you described, but my point is that written in that way, it's not clear. This is precisely why the conversation needs to have nuance, because we all have wildly different experiences with suicide, and we need to fully understand the various factors driving it before we open the gates to assisted suicide. > Perhaps you'd argue this too was a case of the medical system failing the person Why would I argue that? I think you misunderstood my argument. In cases where someone is attempting suicide because of a treatable mental health condition (i.e., a chemistry problem in the brain that can be relieved through modern medicine), I think we should be cautious about killing them without at least attempting to treat the underlying issue. One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that, in many cases, suicide is not an individual act. A father of three with a family dependent on him who decides to commit suicide is very much impacting the lives of his family members. Again, nuance is warranted.
  - volemo 2y ago
    Ok, I think I see your point. However, I still deeply believe MAiD option is a must-have for a healthcare system to be humane.

Flimm 2y ago

Really well said. It is an excruciating situation to be in. Thank you for sharing your perspective.

volemo 2y ago

You say the whole topic requires a lot of nuance and shouldn't be simplified and I say (while agreeing with you in the general case) there is no nuance when it comes to relieving a person from suffering. I get you've witnessed suicides that shouldn't have happened [1], but I had to watch a close relative of mine be in a state of excruciating pain for weeks while slowly dying from cancer. No drugs would help her. She lay there, first screaming, then begging to die, then when the agony became unbearable she'd lie there in between consciousness and unconsciousness, unable to perceive so much of it. From time to time her mind would clear up and I'd see the immense pain in her eyes. The country I'm from doesn't allow euthanasia even in such extreme cases. In that moment, I hated the doctors so much — despite knowing their hands were tied. Even more, I resented the society that would prohibit helping someone in such a state due to its idealistic views of the value of life — views that had never been exposed to the horrors I'd seen. Perhaps you'd argue this too was a case of the medical system failing the person, but I believe that, lacking the knowledge or technology to truly help someone whose illness has progressed so far, we must help as much as we can, even if it means living with the thought of taking someone's life. Sorry for the stream of consciousness; I don't know how to wrap this up. [1]: I say as if there are suicides that should happen. ._\

sepositus 2y ago
> there is no nuance when it comes to relieving a person from suffering What if the person is suffering from a mental health crisis that modern medicines can treat? I'm not trying to be obtuse, and I understand what you mean by suffering is akin to what you described, but my point is that written in that way, it's not clear. This is precisely why the conversation needs to have nuance, because we all have wildly different experiences with suicide, and we need to fully understand the various factors driving it before we open the gates to assisted suicide. > Perhaps you'd argue this too was a case of the medical system failing the person Why would I argue that? I think you misunderstood my argument. In cases where someone is attempting suicide because of a treatable mental health condition (i.e., a chemistry problem in the brain that can be relieved through modern medicine), I think we should be cautious about killing them without at least attempting to treat the underlying issue. One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that, in many cases, suicide is not an individual act. A father of three with a family dependent on him who decides to commit suicide is very much impacting the lives of his family members. Again, nuance is warranted.
- volemo 2y ago
  Ok, I think I see your point. However, I still deeply believe MAiD option is a must-have for a healthcare system to be humane.