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"If you're undecided about this" As with many things, it's a very slippery slope and it is far more nuanced and not easily "decided". MAiD for someone in the

"If you're undecided about this" As with many things, it's a very slippery slope and it is far more nuanced and not easily "decided". MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...). And of course we have expanded MAID to people suffering from mental illnesses, and it's something people are pursuing now because they can't afford rent. Oh and the government is recommending that MAiD be expanded to minors. And FWIW, we've long had MAiD - people with terminal illnesses usually got ever escalating doses of painkillers until their body gives up. It's more formalized now, but as with almost everything people with "good intentions" push it to the point where something simple becomes hugely contentious.

pjc50 2y ago
> MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp Yeah, this has pushed me from being roughly in favor of allowing it to considerable caution. It may or may not be OK for people to make the decision for themselves, but it absolutely is wrong to push people to it.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  Don't overweight rare examples. This is basically the only one that I ever see brought up too because it was a fuck up. Plus it's not like there's any force to offering it.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    I fairly frequently encounter wildly incorrect statements made by public-facing roles. While this is the famous human-euthanasia-related headline example of "WTAF were they thinking?", I've got a few more of that ilk in various cases: • Doctors refusing abortions and the mother dying as a result, even though the law allowed abortion in such cases • The entire public discourse (shouting match) over the various covid vaccines, and of course the lockdowns — as HN has a broad audience, I should note that regardless of which group any reader of this message thinks was "right", both sides were very loudly convinced the other was risking lives, and that necessarily means that a lot of people were very loudly, very forcefully, wrong • The UK's DWP telling loads of people they were considered "fit for work" when they were gravely ill and died shortly after Outside of fatal cases, but still medical: • I've also noticed that almost every discussion where women share experiences of doctors, regardless of group size, there's women who report doctors ignoring evidence and these women having to solve their medical issues on their own • I've personally had a GP tell me something was impossible when it had actually happened — In my case, food ending up in nasal cavity, which was very easy for me to know had happened as the food exited about an hour later via a nostril, but the GP thought it was impossible • Unnecessary surgeries (and I don't mean purely cosmetic surgery) are a thing • Retained surgical instruments are a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retained_surgical_instruments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retained_surgical_instruments Between unfeeling bureaucracies and emotional but flawed humans, there's a lot of room for people to end up pressured into unwanted euthanasia. Figuring out how to minimise suffering given all that? Well, even without that it would be beyond me. But it does make it harder.
    - rtkwe 2y ago
      My main point is that the MAID vs wheel chair ramp is basically the only example of that happening I've ever seen where someone with a minor ask was 'pushed' towards MAID instead. There's rare but recurring then there's 'we have one extreme example' in the case of the vet wheel chair ramp. > Doctors refusing abortions and the mother dying as a result, even though the law allowed abortion in such cases Depends on what law you're talking about in the US some have quite unclear provisions and doctors and hospitals are wary of stepping into unclear water and having to litigate exactly how in danger the life of the mother was at that exact moment.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        > Depends on what law you're talking about Multiple. Ireland was a case I knew had happened, precipitating liberalisation of the law. In the US stories, I couldn't immediately recall if the discussions I have seen were actual cases or hypotheticals.
        rtkwe 2y ago
        There have been several cases in the US where the mother wasn't given miscarriage care due to their anti-abortion law not having a clear enough exception. Even where there are if the criteria are too tough the wait can damage the woman's future chances of successfully having a kid too. One example there's several more out there. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/30/texas-woman-death-abortion-ban-miscarriage https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/30/texas-woman-...
bryanlarsen 2y ago
Which is why MAID requires two independent doctors and a cooling off period, and a bunch of red tape. There's a lot of red tape for a reason. It takes a lot more for it to happen than a single degenerate case manager who has since been fired.
- llm_nerd 2y ago
  https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/article/woman-with-chemical-sensitivities-chose-medically-assisted-death-after-failed-bid-to-get-better-housing/ https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/article/woman-with-chemical-se... In that case a woman with chemical sensitivities was killed by the state. Again, the premise is good. But as always it gets expanded and cases like this become normalized. And soon there is talk about more cases. Rinse and repeat. It's how good ideas become destroyed and hugely contentious. Basically no one has a problem with MAiD for the final stages of a terminal illness. But people just can't stop themselves.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    But you’re just describing the slippery slope. It’s a real problem, and the solution is continual vigilance against sliding too far and a simultaneous pushing to the desirable point. How can we do better?
  - skeaker 2y ago
    What's your conclusion on this then? That it should be completely off the table because of these edge cases? I think finding these problems and patching them out as they're discovered could work. Giving the whole thing up would be like banning all airplanes after the first plane crash. The aviation industry instead put in thorough and rigorous checks to prevent future incidents (which sadly has degraded somewhat recently, but I digress). I think the same could be applied here.
    - llm_nerd 2y ago
      I was simply replying to the "if you're undecided consider this scenario" take. As with many conversations, the situations are often more complex and nuanced than the example case, and as with many initiatives, good intentions can get co-opted until it isn't remotely what people want it to be. People might be onboard with the government assisting someone in the late stages of a terminal illness to end their life with dignity, but find it grotesque if not criminal for the government to be assisting in ending the life of someone who isn't happy with their current apartment. So yes, it's a good program for some cases, but it is a very ugly topic that is not something that people should be "decided" on.
_whiteCaps_ 2y ago
> And FWIW, we've long had MAiD - people with terminal illnesses usually got ever escalating doses of painkillers until their body gives up. It's more formalized now, but as with almost everything people with "good intentions" push it to the point where something simple becomes hugely contentious. With my mom's experience, the old informal system was horrible and undignified. I'm glad we have this new system in place.
lr1970 2y ago
> people with "good intentions" The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

pjc50 2y ago

> MAiD for someone in the final stages of a terminal illness is a far cry from government workers suggesting MAiD to a healthy paralympian veteran asking for a wheelchair ramp Yeah, this has pushed me from being roughly in favor of allowing it to considerable caution. It may or may not be OK for people to make the decision for themselves, but it absolutely is wrong to push people to it.

rtkwe 2y ago
Don't overweight rare examples. This is basically the only one that I ever see brought up too because it was a fuck up. Plus it's not like there's any force to offering it.
- ben_w 2y ago
  I fairly frequently encounter wildly incorrect statements made by public-facing roles. While this is the famous human-euthanasia-related headline example of "WTAF were they thinking?", I've got a few more of that ilk in various cases: • Doctors refusing abortions and the mother dying as a result, even though the law allowed abortion in such cases • The entire public discourse (shouting match) over the various covid vaccines, and of course the lockdowns — as HN has a broad audience, I should note that regardless of which group any reader of this message thinks was "right", both sides were very loudly convinced the other was risking lives, and that necessarily means that a lot of people were very loudly, very forcefully, wrong • The UK's DWP telling loads of people they were considered "fit for work" when they were gravely ill and died shortly after Outside of fatal cases, but still medical: • I've also noticed that almost every discussion where women share experiences of doctors, regardless of group size, there's women who report doctors ignoring evidence and these women having to solve their medical issues on their own • I've personally had a GP tell me something was impossible when it had actually happened — In my case, food ending up in nasal cavity, which was very easy for me to know had happened as the food exited about an hour later via a nostril, but the GP thought it was impossible • Unnecessary surgeries (and I don't mean purely cosmetic surgery) are a thing • Retained surgical instruments are a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retained_surgical_instruments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retained_surgical_instruments Between unfeeling bureaucracies and emotional but flawed humans, there's a lot of room for people to end up pressured into unwanted euthanasia. Figuring out how to minimise suffering given all that? Well, even without that it would be beyond me. But it does make it harder.
  - rtkwe 2y ago
    My main point is that the MAID vs wheel chair ramp is basically the only example of that happening I've ever seen where someone with a minor ask was 'pushed' towards MAID instead. There's rare but recurring then there's 'we have one extreme example' in the case of the vet wheel chair ramp. > Doctors refusing abortions and the mother dying as a result, even though the law allowed abortion in such cases Depends on what law you're talking about in the US some have quite unclear provisions and doctors and hospitals are wary of stepping into unclear water and having to litigate exactly how in danger the life of the mother was at that exact moment.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > Depends on what law you're talking about Multiple. Ireland was a case I knew had happened, precipitating liberalisation of the law. In the US stories, I couldn't immediately recall if the discussions I have seen were actual cases or hypotheticals.
      - rtkwe 2y ago
        There have been several cases in the US where the mother wasn't given miscarriage care due to their anti-abortion law not having a clear enough exception. Even where there are if the criteria are too tough the wait can damage the woman's future chances of successfully having a kid too. One example there's several more out there. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/30/texas-woman-death-abortion-ban-miscarriage https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/30/texas-woman-...

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Which is why MAID requires two independent doctors and a cooling off period, and a bunch of red tape. There's a lot of red tape for a reason. It takes a lot more for it to happen than a single degenerate case manager who has since been fired.

llm_nerd 2y ago
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/article/woman-with-chemical-sensitivities-chose-medically-assisted-death-after-failed-bid-to-get-better-housing/ https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/article/woman-with-chemical-se... In that case a woman with chemical sensitivities was killed by the state. Again, the premise is good. But as always it gets expanded and cases like this become normalized. And soon there is talk about more cases. Rinse and repeat. It's how good ideas become destroyed and hugely contentious. Basically no one has a problem with MAiD for the final stages of a terminal illness. But people just can't stop themselves.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  But you’re just describing the slippery slope. It’s a real problem, and the solution is continual vigilance against sliding too far and a simultaneous pushing to the desirable point. How can we do better?
- skeaker 2y ago
  What's your conclusion on this then? That it should be completely off the table because of these edge cases? I think finding these problems and patching them out as they're discovered could work. Giving the whole thing up would be like banning all airplanes after the first plane crash. The aviation industry instead put in thorough and rigorous checks to prevent future incidents (which sadly has degraded somewhat recently, but I digress). I think the same could be applied here.
  - llm_nerd 2y ago
    I was simply replying to the "if you're undecided consider this scenario" take. As with many conversations, the situations are often more complex and nuanced than the example case, and as with many initiatives, good intentions can get co-opted until it isn't remotely what people want it to be. People might be onboard with the government assisting someone in the late stages of a terminal illness to end their life with dignity, but find it grotesque if not criminal for the government to be assisting in ending the life of someone who isn't happy with their current apartment. So yes, it's a good program for some cases, but it is a very ugly topic that is not something that people should be "decided" on.

_whiteCaps_ 2y ago

> And FWIW, we've long had MAiD - people with terminal illnesses usually got ever escalating doses of painkillers until their body gives up. It's more formalized now, but as with almost everything people with "good intentions" push it to the point where something simple becomes hugely contentious. With my mom's experience, the old informal system was horrible and undignified. I'm glad we have this new system in place.

lr1970 2y ago

> people with "good intentions" The road to hell is paved with good intentions.