5 ms·

I feel for the dad but it really seems like a case he shouldn't even have standing to bring. The daughter is a full blown 23 year old adult, unless she's been a

by rtkwe 2y ago

I feel for the dad but it really seems like a case he shouldn't even have standing to bring. The daughter is a full blown 23 year old adult, unless she's been adjudicated as incompetent to make her own decisions and he has a guardianship of some sort she should be fully autonomous.

dylan604 2y ago
I know by law a 23 year old is considered an adult, but full blown seems to be hyperbolic.
- haunter 2y ago
  Founding fathers age on July 4, 1776: James Monroe, 18 Aaron Burr, 20 Alexander Hamilton, 21 James Madison, 25
  - arkey 2y ago
    Which shows pretty well how things have changed. People grew up earlier, before. Now, so many people at 30 years old are still children.
- philipwhiuk 2y ago
  How old is 'full blown' in your view then? 30? 40? 50?
- david-gpu 2y ago
  Being old enough to go to war means being old enough to make life altering decisions by herself.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    It is pretty well accepted that the human brain does not fully mature until mid-20s. So a full blown adult is different than legally considered adult.
    - blueflow 2y ago
      Maybe but why should their Dad still have a say in this?
    - Shank 2y ago
      > So a full blown adult is different than legally considered adult. We have to create a line somewhere and currently that line is the age of majority. Some people mature faster than others, and even you didn’t provide a specific age. How are we supposed to make decisions about what constitutes an adult without a firm cutoff?
      - grayhatter 2y ago
        I think it's reasonable to have different lines for different decisions. Driving at 16 is fine, voting at 18 feels young (subjectively, but more young people should vote), drinking at 21 feels responsibile, can consent to suicide at the age of the 95th percentile where brains have stopped growing/maturing feels reasonable? I think I heard your brain is growing until the age of 25, and IIRC The odds of being diagnosed with schizophrenia goes up until the age of 26, so maybe 26 is the age which you're considered adult enough to consent to suicide?
        mariusor 2y ago
        Where do you think the age of being allowed to enlist in the army should be?
        grayhatter 2y ago
        Oooh, that's an interesting question. So, normally I'd reject the hypothetical here, and say war is bad, so "should" doesn't apply. But instead, if I can assume it's required for existence, society should define the minimum age as high as possible to ensure victory. Fighting in a war is actively harmful to feeling safe. Feeling safe is required for individuals to grow at the maximum rate. Growing as a child has the same effects as compounding interest, so the absolute best growth possible should be the target for everyone, as early as possible. If you're talking about joining a standing army without consideration for combat. I don't think there's any minimum age. I used to teach a "combat sport" to children as young as 4. Then, for the US army, which I know about, I think 18 is perfectly reasonable, where many people could gain very useful skills/education from the training that joining the US military entails.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    Adults are just children with more money. Everyone needs guidance. There are plenty of stories of interrupted suicides that ultimately changed the fate of an individual. They were saved and they were glad they were saved. This happens at all ages. The fact that you can say that being old enough to go to war means that someone is old enough to make life altering decisions as if just this arbitrary numeric number means something because it was encoded into law shows that you’re not ready to say who has the right to go to war, go to war yourself, nor say anything about who has the right to go suicide. Think before you follow some arbitrary rule and make that rule the axiom for your logic.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  Napoleon Bonaparte was lieutenant-colonel of a battalion at 23.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    Had he not been lieutenant-colonel at that age maybe he could have had a quiet happy life instead of ruining and ending the one of thousands of his contemporaries and having his own life end so badly.
    - skeaker 2y ago
      I guess that's true, but we're straying from the point of discussion I think.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  As a society, through laws, we've decided there's an age where a person is mature enough to be granted autonomy separate from their parents. If we start trying to decide when they're mature by brain development we'll probably find the brain never really stops growing and changing and even if there is a general age it'll be different for every person as everyone develops differently. That's an untenable standard.
jisnsm 2y ago
She tried to kill herself three years ago so it seems she’s not fit to make such decisions.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  Other side of the coin; she's wanted to kill herself for a long time but failed and is now unable to do it herself due to the damage of the previous attempt. Suicide attempt does not equal losing all your rights to self determination.

by rtkwe 2y ago

dylan604 2y ago

I know by law a 23 year old is considered an adult, but full blown seems to be hyperbolic.

haunter 2y ago
Founding fathers age on July 4, 1776: James Monroe, 18 Aaron Burr, 20 Alexander Hamilton, 21 James Madison, 25
- arkey 2y ago
  Which shows pretty well how things have changed. People grew up earlier, before. Now, so many people at 30 years old are still children.
philipwhiuk 2y ago
How old is 'full blown' in your view then? 30? 40? 50?
david-gpu 2y ago
Being old enough to go to war means being old enough to make life altering decisions by herself.
- dylan604 2y ago
  It is pretty well accepted that the human brain does not fully mature until mid-20s. So a full blown adult is different than legally considered adult.
  - blueflow 2y ago
    Maybe but why should their Dad still have a say in this?
  - Shank 2y ago
    > So a full blown adult is different than legally considered adult. We have to create a line somewhere and currently that line is the age of majority. Some people mature faster than others, and even you didn’t provide a specific age. How are we supposed to make decisions about what constitutes an adult without a firm cutoff?
    - grayhatter 2y ago
      I think it's reasonable to have different lines for different decisions. Driving at 16 is fine, voting at 18 feels young (subjectively, but more young people should vote), drinking at 21 feels responsibile, can consent to suicide at the age of the 95th percentile where brains have stopped growing/maturing feels reasonable? I think I heard your brain is growing until the age of 25, and IIRC The odds of being diagnosed with schizophrenia goes up until the age of 26, so maybe 26 is the age which you're considered adult enough to consent to suicide?
      - mariusor 2y ago
        Where do you think the age of being allowed to enlist in the army should be?
        grayhatter 2y ago
        Oooh, that's an interesting question. So, normally I'd reject the hypothetical here, and say war is bad, so "should" doesn't apply. But instead, if I can assume it's required for existence, society should define the minimum age as high as possible to ensure victory. Fighting in a war is actively harmful to feeling safe. Feeling safe is required for individuals to grow at the maximum rate. Growing as a child has the same effects as compounding interest, so the absolute best growth possible should be the target for everyone, as early as possible. If you're talking about joining a standing army without consideration for combat. I don't think there's any minimum age. I used to teach a "combat sport" to children as young as 4. Then, for the US army, which I know about, I think 18 is perfectly reasonable, where many people could gain very useful skills/education from the training that joining the US military entails.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  Adults are just children with more money. Everyone needs guidance. There are plenty of stories of interrupted suicides that ultimately changed the fate of an individual. They were saved and they were glad they were saved. This happens at all ages. The fact that you can say that being old enough to go to war means that someone is old enough to make life altering decisions as if just this arbitrary numeric number means something because it was encoded into law shows that you’re not ready to say who has the right to go to war, go to war yourself, nor say anything about who has the right to go suicide. Think before you follow some arbitrary rule and make that rule the axiom for your logic.
BiteCode_dev 2y ago
Napoleon Bonaparte was lieutenant-colonel of a battalion at 23.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Had he not been lieutenant-colonel at that age maybe he could have had a quiet happy life instead of ruining and ending the one of thousands of his contemporaries and having his own life end so badly.
  - skeaker 2y ago
    I guess that's true, but we're straying from the point of discussion I think.
rtkwe 2y ago
As a society, through laws, we've decided there's an age where a person is mature enough to be granted autonomy separate from their parents. If we start trying to decide when they're mature by brain development we'll probably find the brain never really stops growing and changing and even if there is a general age it'll be different for every person as everyone develops differently. That's an untenable standard.

jisnsm 2y ago

She tried to kill herself three years ago so it seems she’s not fit to make such decisions.

rtkwe 2y ago
Other side of the coin; she's wanted to kill herself for a long time but failed and is now unable to do it herself due to the damage of the previous attempt. Suicide attempt does not equal losing all your rights to self determination.